pegkerr: (Default)
pegkerr ([personal profile] pegkerr) wrote2005-01-12 07:29 am

The Giving Tree, urgh

I was looking at various critics' list for best 100 books, and ran across The National Education Association's list of 100 best books for children.

Right at the top is Shel Silverstein's The Giving Tree, and I think urgh, urgh urgh.

To me, The Giving Tree is a loathsome, evil book.

I'm a Christian, but to me the message of that book is just twisted, and certainly not a picture of what true Christian giving should be like, although I am sure there are many that would argue otherwise. It is clear that the author approves of the tree (Edited to add: or perhaps he doesn't; perhaps it's meant as a cautionary tale). The tree is always referred to as she, and she gives up her apples, her branches, and eventually the wood of her trunk to a selfish, greedy boy. When he is an old man, he sits on her stump. That's the payoff: "And the tree was happy."

I rewrote the story once because it disgusted me so much. I wish I had a copy of my rewrite (Edited to add: I remember now: I titled my rewrite The Sharing Tree). When he asked for apples, she told him to take half the apples and sell them for fertilizer to put around her trunk, and then she could make even more apples, so there would be some for him, but she would not be bereft. I think at one point she told him to apply yet more fertilizer so she would be even bigger and stronger, and then invited him to make a tree house in her (much larger) branches, using the extra wood she had grown big enough to spare, and invite all his friends over so that he would not be lonely. In the end, she was a mighty tree indeed, with many extra apples and many extra branches, with a breezy tree house up above and a whole happy, thriving community around her roots. My point was, she could give to him without maiming and destroying herself. And goddamn it, why did he have to be so selfish, anyway? Why did he (male) always get to be the taker, and she (female) always have to be the giver? Couldn't there be ways that he could take and she could give that wouldn't involve her destruction, but instead her being nurtured by him? Why was she happy that he parked his bony ass on her in the end, destroyed by giving herself up for him, when he had done nothing for her? How could the author approve of this?

I think it's an awful message, both for girls and for boys.

So? Do you agree or disagree?

Edited to add (again!): Thanks to [livejournal.com profile] mereilin, who provided a link to a symposium at the always interesting First Things about the book.

[identity profile] psychic-serpent.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Hehe. No, you're not a Mary Sue. You also don't live on a Swiss alp. Don't know where you stand on goats, though. :D

Was Eloise on the list? I don't recall seeing it. Eh. Probably too much fun. ;)

[identity profile] psychic-serpent.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
That's certainly a, erm, unique interpretation of what Peg wrote. :: mind boggles :: Suggestion: Don't read His Dark Materials. Heh.

[identity profile] pegkerr.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I think a much better Christian interpretation of what should be the proper relationship between the giver and the receiver (and how selfishness/unselfishness works within it, and how one can give without annihilating the self) is "Leaf by Niggle" by J.R.R. Tolkien.

Have you read it?

[identity profile] pegkerr.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
My answer to you is "Go read 'Leaf by Niggle' by J.R.R. Tolkien."

[identity profile] psychic-serpent.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:43 pm (UTC)(link)
No, but I bow to your superior knowledge of all things Tolkien. (It's been about twenty years since I read LOTR and The Silmarillion, although I read The Hobbit to my daughter a couple of years ago.)

After my first knee-jerk comment, something more thought out...

[identity profile] mereilin.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I stewed about this book for a solid week after I first read it last spring, and decided that I absolutely hate it, and my husband (after reading it to Danny every night at bedtime for a week) was in full agreement. Our general consensus is that the tree is a pathetic doormat and the boy is a selfish, insensitive jerk.

I got a bunch of comments when I first posted my initial reactions to the book, and I was surprised to realize that there are many people who have found this story beautiful and inspiring.

But what I think is this: If it's actually a parable about a parent's love for their child, it's missing something that I think is critical. Parents do give unselfishly to their children, and sacrifice a lot to make them happy. But ultimately children grow up and become parents themselves, and the cycle continues. To apply the parent/child paradigm to this story is to assume that parents can only be truly happy when they spoil their children at the expense of their own well-being and yet, somehow, manage never to prepare them to be responsible, giving adults.

The boy grew up, but never grew past the selfish child. In all his long life, he learned nothing at all from the tree that gave up her very life for him, which sort of makes her sacrifice pointless. The tree is dead, incapable of giving anything to anyone else; the boy is by then obviously a very old man who's going to die soon. The world is not a better place because of their existence.

Go ahead, says the tree. Use me, cut me up, leave me for dead -- I'll be happy if you're happy. But the thing is, he isn't happy until there's nothing left of her but a stump for his sorry old ass to sit on, and even then he seems more worn out than actually happy. If you turned the page to see what happens next, would he just get up and hobble away again, leaving the tree stump alone in the forest? Would he die right there, to finally give the tree what he wouldn't give her in life?

I don't think there's anything in that story that I want to emulate, nor that I want my kids to emulate. Kindness and giving are beautiful things; finding contentment in continually being abused by someone you love and care for is not.

For more discussion on this, both pro and con, check out the following link:

The Giving Tree: A Symposium

Re: After my first knee-jerk comment, something more thought out...

[identity profile] pegkerr.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, many thanks for the link! I have always appreciated the articles I've read in First Things.

[identity profile] sienamystic.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
There's also that one about the fish, which has beautiful shiny scales that everybody envies, so of course the solution is for the fish to *rip off all its scales* and give them to his friends so nobody is jealous anymore.

The illustrations are so pretty, and the book is so horrible.

[identity profile] cakmpls.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
You might find this interesting: "The Giving Tree: A Symposium" at
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9501/articles/givingtree.html .
Some disagree with you, and some agree.

One participant says this, which I think is particularly on point here:
"When the tree helps the boy realize some of his desires, those wants are legitimate--to eat and to play, to buy things and have fun, to have a house and family, to sail away and (one suspects) begin anew, to rest. But through all of this, when the boy seems merely to be taking and the tree only to be giving, the boy loves the tree. If that is said only once, the reality is plain. For the heart with 'ME & T' carved into the tree is never effaced. When the tree is taken down to a stump, that expression of love still remains. The boy keeps coming back not simply because he gets what he wants from the tree, but because he loves the tree. And we must therefore ask what makes the boy's love possible. Not, I think, only the things the tree gives, but that she gives herself without stinting. The boy returns not because the tree requires it, but because the tree's love makes it possible for him to leave and return."

As this person points out, the boy goes to the tree for what he needs in his development as a human being. That last line, I think, is key to my viewpoint on this story as an allegory of parenting: I try to give my children everything they need to become the human beings they were meant to be, and I will keep on trying till I'm an old stump. They aren't selfish in asking for these things; they need them, and in being their parent I have taken on the responsibility to give these things to the best of my ability.

When the day comes that I am that old stump, it won't be because my children took everything, or anything, from me, but because a tree is supposed to eventually become an old stump. That's the way of nature; that is the natural ending for me.

As for the issue of gender: Would it be possible to make the tree and the human of any combination of genders and not have someone protest? If both were male or both were female, would not someone see significance in the fact that the tree is dark in color and the human is light? If the tree were male and the human female, would not someone protest that it portrays a stereotypical relationship between a hard-working male provider and a greedy female being provided for?

(Anonymous) 2005-01-12 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm only anonymous because I don't have an LJ. My name is Brian.

"And goddamn it, why did he have to be so selfish, anyway?"

That's what I mean by condemning the Lord to hell. Peg ought to be ashamed.
ext_22302: (Default)

[identity profile] ivyblossom.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Great topic, Peg!

I have to say I have a conflicted relationship with The Giving Tree. I'm not the biggest fan of the book, but I did think it was an interesting story about total, unconditional love that is never returned or ever completely understood. It's definitely a creepy book, and I do look a bit askance at it in terms of gender relations, true. I'm not sure what S.S. meant in writing it the way he did, but it's a very painful story.

But I wouldn't read it to my nephew.

[identity profile] sartorias.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Loathesome book. And [livejournal.com profile] papersky beat me to the second most loathesome book that parents just love foisting on little ones, "Love You Forever."

Shiver.

[identity profile] ascian.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
"Don't know where you stand on goats, though."

Between the horns! Hah! ^_^

[identity profile] cakmpls.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm curious: How do you feel about Oscar Wilde's "The Happy Prince"?

[identity profile] pegkerr.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Hi, Brian. Thanks for introducing yourself.

I must admit I'm rather confused by your answer, however. I was condemning the selfish boy who grows up to be the old man in the story. Not the Lord. I don't see how you read my entry otherwise.

As far as being ashamed of what I wrote: well, I did make a New Year's resolution to swear less, yes.

But I hope I will always condemn selfishness. And I'm not ashamed of that.

[identity profile] liadan-m.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:00 pm (UTC)(link)
agreement.

Thank you.

[identity profile] jbru.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Chapter:verse for the Mary and Martha story? (For those of us not so versed in our holy books.)

[identity profile] misia.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I never cared for it, but then again I always thought that Silverstein was showing his true colors a whole lot more in the infamous Uncle Shelby's ABZ Book.

[identity profile] juliansinger.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, if so, it's depressing that most of the "civilized" world doesn't seem to /get/ it.

[identity profile] matociquala.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
*nod* And the only evidence I have to support the reading is "And the tree was happy. But not very."

But then, we live ina culture that celebrates codependency. So I'm not surprised that if it's meant to yank chains, the irony doesn't shine through.

I just don't know.

[identity profile] pegkerr.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Alas, I don't think I've read that one yet.

[identity profile] castiron.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Luke 10:38.

[identity profile] cakmpls.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think the mother in "Love You Forever" says anything like "I will always love you best of everything in the world, I will always make everything right." What she sings is
"I'll love you forever
I'll like you for always
As long as I'm living
My baby you'll be."

I've always seen the mother's climbing into her adult son's room to sing to him as just a metaphor. I often wish I could hold my now-21-year-old son in my arms and sing to him the song his dad and I made up when he was a baby:
"What a wonderful, wonderful Ben-Ben . . ."
I wouldn't do it, for his sake, but I wish I could, for mine.

(And I'm sitting here crying as I write this.)

[identity profile] jbru.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Very interesting take. Thanks for the well-thought-out counterpoint to Peg's (also well-thought-out) criticism.

[identity profile] cakmpls.livejournal.com 2005-01-12 06:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that where we differ in our viewpoint on this book is that I don't see the tree as annihilating its self. For that matter, I don't know that I would see any kind of giving as annihilating the self, unless that's what the giver set out to do.

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