The woman who was trying too hard

[pegkerr]

I don't know why, but I've been thinking about a three second encounter I had in the elevator for several days now.

I was leaving the office on my way home from work. The elevator opened and another woman got on.

You know how sometimes you size another person in a split second? I took one look at her and thought, "She's trying way too hard."

She was very heavily made up. She had obviously read the beauty magazines with their advice about creating contours with shading, and her lips were heavily outlined. Her hair was long, a color probably not original, artfully tousled--except that the effect was a little diminished because it was stiff with hairspray. Clouds of scent roiled off of her, to the point that it was almost difficult to breathe. She had spangles sewn on her chemise, heavy fashion belt, designer handbag, high-heeled fashion shoes.

Now, I wear makeup, but I go for a much more understated look. I was wearing my grubby knit pants and a T-shirt, with a dorky orange safety vest with reflector strips sewn on it. Beat up running shoes. I had my helmet on, and I was carrying my bicycle's front wheel, bungee cords, a utilitarian purse, gym bag with my clothes, and stainless steel commuter cup with water. I was definitely the caterpillar to her butterfly.

"How far do you bike?" she asked me, smiling pleasantly.

"Not far. Only about five miles."

"Not far?" She shook her head in disbelief, as if five miles were a trek to Siberia. The elevator door opened up, and she walked out first, mincing a little because her shoes were so tall. "My, my," she said as she walked away.

I don't know why I've been thinking about her repeatedly since. I realized, as I watched her go, that I felt a little superior to her, and I've been trying to scold myself out of that ever since. Why, for heavens sake? Well, I have a hunch she's a stranger to exercise (she was carrying a few extra pounds, just a few, and she certainly doesn't do any running in those shoes.) She was perfectly nice. But she seemed so . . . artificial, in a way that I can't help will make her look sort of shopworn as she grows older. I wonder if she is happy with her life.

I also wonder what she thought of me.

Comments

[ozarque.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting post -- especially the part about your trying to scold yourself out of feeling superior. I suspect that a major difference between the two of you is that she felt superior to you too, but she's not trying to scold herself out of feeling that way.

My favorite line in this area of Philosophy Of The World is Dolly Parton's solemn declaration that "it takes a lot of time and money to look this cheap."

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

LOL!

[ladyvorkosigan.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm sorry and I hope this doesn't come off rudely, but what would bring you to that conclusion? Is it something specific she said or is it simply an assumption that women of a particular style of dress are inherently going to judge other women who don't meet it? Because while I think we do live in a culture that encourages us to judge each other on appearances, I'm not sure it works one way.

(And on a side note I will bet dollars to donuts that woman was thinking "Wow, she bikes five miles to work? I bet she's thinking I'm a fat pig," because, sadly, in our culture fat often trumps so much else about a woman's self-image.)

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I agree with ozarque; I'd bet money she felt a little (or maybe not a little) superior to you, too.

She might be very happy with her life, or very miserable. People can be happy, and miserable, in an astonishing variety of ways.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

"That woman has a nice body from all her bike riding, but wee-yoo, she has no idea how to dress, poor thing."

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Maybe she had some kind of surgery or has been on a careful diet and has lost 80 lbs., and in her eyes she looks fabulous and hasn't been so skinny since junior high school.

Maybe she tripped last winter on the neighbor's unshovelled sidewalk and sprained her ankle and has been in physical therapy all this time and finally can wear heels again.

Maybe when she puts on her make up she sees herself as pretty. Maybe people who love her tell her she is beautiful and sexy.

K.

[katakanadian.livejournal.com]

i>Maybe she ... has lost 80 lbs
This was my comeback once to some kids who made a 'whale' comment about me. I'm still fat but at least I'm 15kg less fat and I'm fitter than most of the people around me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

What an interesting situation. Because of course it's not that the woman was so obviously inferior, but there was something about how she struck you that just...struck you. I wonder what it is about the way she looked that seemed like trying too hard and made you think about it. I mean, because lots of people are probably out there trying to hard in many ways--or looking like they are when maybe they aren't. But they don't all make us think that, you know?

That's always the fear in dressing up though, isn't it? I mean, even in the fashion magazines the idea is to not look like you're trying. So I feel sympathy for anybody who can't carry it off--I suspect I couldn't either! Make-up-wise, I've had people at work refer to me as wearing no make-up when I wear it every day at work. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

[corinnethewise.livejournal.com]

That's always my problem. So many people seem to be able to pull off what they wear, but I always feel conspicuous, no matter what I wear. If I dress up, I feel too dressed up. If I'm wearing jeans and a t-shirt, I feel too casual. :( I don't know if I actually stick out, but I always feel like I'm trying too hard (or like I look like a total slob).

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I think an athletic woman in a grubby set of workout clothes is more sexy than a woman in lingerie, and WAY more sexy than someone with a bunch of spackle and war paint pasted on her face. I never have liked makeup much, and the older I get, the less I like it. Basically the baseline is where there's so little of it that I can't tell that it's there at all, any more than that and my opinion goes down accordingly.

If these people put half the time into a simple exercise regime as they did in buying and using gimmicks and fakery, they'd make twice the difference.

I see a woman trying that hard at the workplace, and (yes, I've thought about this) all I can think is, either she's trying to use sex as a lever to either make up for her own perceived inadequacies or to gain some kind of advantage, or she's actively trying to attract someone's attention. The latter is fine I suppose, but I suspect pretty rare. The former, well, it makes it hard for me to respect someone like that as a professional. I know many women say "I just do it for myself, I like to be pretty." That's even more sad, if they think they can't be pretty without spending a half hour faking up their faces and hair; what kind of messed-up image of perfection have they been imprinted with? And how inadequate must they feel on their own?

But I honestly have no idea how unusual my opinion is. I suspect that I'm pretty far out in that regard. I have only really discussed it with a few women, and honestly either I'm completely wrong or they're deeply brainwashed. Actually, I have found one woman who says she thinks I'm completely right. I think everyone is at their best when they're completely unadorned and honest. At least, anyone worth knowing is.

I know where you're at with the "only 5 miles" thing though. People who have never ridden very far think anything more than a mile or so is a major achievement. I sometimes ride an extra 4 miles on my way home just to deposit a check.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

That's even more sad, if they think they can't be pretty without spending a half hour faking up their faces and hair

Oooooh, wow. Half an hour isn't long at all to blow dry one's hair and put on some powder and mascara. It's a cleaner, more professional look. A woman who goes to the office every day with a bare face and unbrushed hair will never be taken as seriously as a woman with well maintained hair and understated, polished makeup. It might not be fair, but it's just a fact of life, the same as a woman who wears a suit and stockings every day will be seen as more professional than someone in jeans and flip flops.

Seriously, spending half an hour on basic grooming before work isn't trying too hard. It's just what's expected.

I think everyone is at their best when they're completely unadorned and honest. At least, anyone worth knowing is.

I look more put together with foundation, lip gloss, and a blowout than I do when I've just rolled out of bed, with a bare face and tangled hair. Guess I'm not worth knowing.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much me too. (Though I am often wearing jeans and sneakers at work--and have been mistaken for the college intern just to prove that you're right there!) It depends on your coloring how you look without make up. I have friends who look fabulous and finished without it--and sometimes they even look odd when they put it on, either because they don't do it well or it just looks painted over. For me the difference is looking a lot paler. And my eyes look very different with not very much make-up. It doesn't so much look like I'm wearing a lot of eye make-up, but my eyes look less deep set or something.

I think it's bad if a woman is uncomfortable with her non made-up face, but not if she just likes putting on make-up. That can be really positive and fun. "War paint" can be a good thing! I take about a half hour in the morning to blow-dry my hair and put on make-up and it's a pretty natural look.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I think having tons of makeup piled on can be just as unprofessional as no makeup at all, but at the other end of the spectrum. Trashy instead of overly casual. But playing with makeup is super fun, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying it. I also agree that it's not good if a woman hates her non made up face.

It depends on your coloring how you look without make up.

It also depends a lot on the makeup, and on the technique of the person applying it. I never had a clue about makeup until I got a lesson from the guy at the Chanel counter a few years ago. He taught me how to use very little of it for a great, polished effect that can then be spruced up for evening with some extra eyeshadow or red lipstick instead of nude gloss. If you buy good products, and you have someone teach you exactly how to use them, you can't go wrong.

I'm also super pale, so I wear a bit of foundation every day to even out any redness in my skin. I don't put it all over, just where I need it. Then I brush on some loose powder and blush, and use a bit of mascara and gloss. I still look exactly like myself, but better. My skin doesn't get shiny in the middle of the day, my lips don't chap, and my eyes have a bit more oomph. It's just more polished looking, you know? And I do see a difference in how I'm treated at work, in makeup and professional clothes vs. no makeup and jeans.

Of course, this our conversation really doesn't apply to Peg's overdone lady. If I saw someone like her, I probably wouldn't be able to help smirking a little too.

[aome.livejournal.com]

I think putting on SOME makeup, with a natural, polished look, is not the same as "trying too hard" with "war paint" (or overdone, oversprayed hair). I think if you stood the two looks side by side, you would clearly be able to tell the difference.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. But sometimes a more unnatural, made-up face can probably be fun too--it just depends on the attitude behind it. Make-up should be fun and a generally positive experience, something a woman can feel confident about either way. It was considered evil in some times and places, like "glamoury" or something, which makes me think it's a cool power for women to have if they want it.

[aome.livejournal.com]

Again - that's not the same thing as having a sense that a person is "trying too hard". If you just feel like being more "out there" and having some fun with color - that's a personal decision based on your mood. If you feel you have to do something "just so", in some precise manner because fashion or someone else's opinion dictates it, then you are trying too hard.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, ITA. The same goes for fashion--if you look like you put on the clothes and the make up because somebody told you this is what to look like instead of something you put on because you liked it, it often shows. I know I've hated it when I've felt that way. But meanwhile you can be somebody who's wearing stuff that's supposed to be wrong but if the person feels good and chose it to express themselves they carry it off.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

Well, clearly people need to keep their hair in order. If you choose to wear it long, it'll take a while to keep it straight.

But as far as spending more than half an hour a day doing this stuff? I guess I'm disappointed that we feel that hundreds of hours of someone's life per year are that expendable. It's no wonder people feel that they have no time in their lives when they waste so much of it.

I'm a little sad to live in a society that thinks people have to do this in order to be taken seriously. I don't really think it's true in all cases. There are a few women where I work who don't wear makeup, and I don't know of anyone here who doesn't think of them as very competent, professional people. I'm not saying that these people should just pull on some sweats and come into work without brushing their hair.

A woman who goes to the office every day with a bare face and unbrushed hair will never be taken as seriously as a woman with well maintained hair and understated, polished makeup.

That depends on the observer; it's most certainly not true for me. I think it's less true than most women believe; IMHO most have really bought into the company line here. But sadly most professional situations are more misogynistic than most will admit.

Note however, that nobody ever said anything about not brushing hair; that's a given, but what's that take? 5 or 10 minutes depending on hair length? Sure, you CAN spend almost any amount of time screwing with hair, but to get it presentable in a professional situation, it shouldn't really take longer than that.

However, I'm a big fan of short hair personally, for both genders. I spend a sum total of, uh, 5 seconds per day neatening my hair, so what do I know?

[ladyvorkosigan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, unbrushed hair and bare face seem like too very different things to me. If your hair is visibly disheveled, sure, that will look less professional but among the professional women of my acquaintance, probably about half habitually wear make-up and half don't. It generally fits fine with professional appearance either way, and I certainly haven't noticed people being treated differently because of it.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

I was just answering johnridley for myself: if I don't spend a bit of time in the morning blowing out my hair with volumizer and a round brush, it's a mess all day.

[tinymich.livejournal.com]

Uhm. *raises hand* I go to the office every day with a bare face (well, I put moisturizer on), and I try to remember to brush my hair. Although, now that I think of it, today I forgot. Not that it matters, because until I have the time to get it cut again, my hair is up (in a bun) every day.

I know that I am taken seriously at work, but I also know that it is because of my competence and abilities, and not because of how I look.

As a matter of fact, while we're on the subject -- there is a team of young women my age who sit down the hall from me. They are all nicely dressed and carefully-made-up and have pretty hair and outfits. From what I hear from my male colleagues, they are not taken nearly as seriously as I am, because I get things done and they don't. This even though they look better than I do.

I'm not trying to say that I am better than them, or than you, but I would like to posit that there are makeup-free women out there who are taken more seriously than made-up women, and that therefore being taken seriously is not as strongly linked with appearances as it is with competencies and professional *behavior*.

(Oh, also -- every day I think about losing half an hour of my precious sleep time to makeup, add the minutes up, and continue to be glad that I do not wear makeup. I'll take the sleep, thanks.)

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

I should have included that, all other things being equal, the person with a more groomed, professional look will be considered more professional. Obviously if you do great work and your colleagues don't, your bosses will recognize that. Makeup does not confer talent, competence, organizational skills, or ambition. Obviously.

But if two people have the same skills and experience and interview for the same job, all other things being equal, the one who looks more professional will be hired. It's just how the world works.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

You assume that putting on makeup equals looking more professional. This is simply a cultural bias. If you don't think so, then it should apply equally to men. I agree that a person who is better groomed has a better chance, but I do not agree that grooming and neat appearance requires makeup.

I know several women who do not wear makeup most days (if at all), but do look very professional, and a couple are officers in my company; all are professionals.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

This is simply a cultural bias. If you don't think so, then it should apply equally to men.

Oh, I've never denied that. Of course it's cultural. There are probably a few businesses where this isn't the case, like yours apparently, but makeup has been part of a professional appearance in every job I've ever had, except the summer in college when I was a camp counselor. Men don't have to wear it, and maybe that's unfair, but women do, and if you want to get ahead you have to play the game.

I kind of feel like I've said everything I possibly can on this subject. I'm all makeuped out. I had no idea the topic would be so fraught: I only replied in the first place because you said that women who spend half an hour on their hair and makeup in the morning aren't worth knowing, and now I feel like you're trying to say...I'm not sure what. That I'm not worth knowing because I adhere to the standards of my workplace's professional dress and should feel ashamed and shallow for wearing a little makeup every day, I guess. You're not going to convince me.

And we're so off topic from Peg's post about the woman in the elevator. I feel bad that this discussion has hijacked her journal. I'm sorry, Peg.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that women who were in the situation where they felt they had to use makeup to have a fair chance at work were not worth knowing.

When I wrote that in regard to "unadorned and honest", I intended the "not worth knowing" comment to go alongside the "honest" part. I was thinking about people who are dishonest in their dealings with others in some way; specifically I was thinking about some sales/marketing people I know who can lie with total sincerity, and perhaps not even with any guilt. I'd just as soon not know people like that.

I have never judged anyone based on how much/if any makeup they were wearing, and I'm sorry that my poor language skills left such an impression. I just wanted to point out that, for me, the makeup is at best a non-issue, or in some cases a basis for some sadness that someone feels that they need to use it to have an even chance. More for the fact that they could be right, really. I know these situations exist, but I don't like them.

In the end I think that people who judge others based on some silly criteria like makeup, rather than competence, will pay a price; everyone knows incompetents that are promoted to dangerous heights because they're either snappy dressers, are sexy, or are huge suckups. Companies that make such judgements bring about their own punishment.

[hamsterwoman]

A woman who goes to the office every day with a bare face and unbrushed hair will never be taken as seriously as a woman with well maintained hair and understated, polished makeup. It might not be fair, but it's just a fact of life, the same as a woman who wears a suit and stockings every day will be seen as more professional than someone in jeans and flip flops.

Uh, I think I have to disagree with that, or parts of it, anyway. I also don't think the dichotomy being set up is a true one. Brushing one's hair is basic maintenance (provided it's a kind of cut that requires it), applicable for both men and women, kind of like brushing one's teeth. I don't think makeup falls under basic maintenance at all, though those who choose to include it in their daily regimen are, of course, in no way inferior to those who don't, on the strength of that alone. Similarly, flip-flops are probably not appropriate workplace wear for men or women, but if the guys can wear jeans to work? There's no reason a woman working at the same place shouldn't be able to. And there are plenty of workplaces where jeans are not only appropriate but most common attire (mine, a high tech industry giant, is one of them).

I don't wear makeup to work. Some of my female coworkers do, many of them don't, a number of them have job functions that preclude them from wearing makeup on the job. Most of us wear jeans; a few of us wear pantsuits, or skirts and stockings. I've never seen evidence that our professionalism is judged based on makeup or lack thereof, or stockings vs jeans. (And, of course, I don't agree that it should be.) Mostly it seems to be judged on, you know, how professionally we behave ourselves with our coworkers and customers, and how well we do our jobs.

I realize that different workplaces have different conventions, and that in many jobs makeup and stockings are part of the expected attire for a female employee (even though I, personally, think that's unfair). But your original statement is way too broad.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

But your original statement is way too broad.

Okay? I was responding to johnridley's specific statement that women who spend half an hour in the morning on their hair and makeup are wasting time. In response to that specific statement, I replied that some people (like me) have to spend half an hour every morning doing their hair and makeup for plain baseline grooming for work. I thought it was so obvious that I was referring to people who work in office environments with formal dress codes and specific accepted practices that I didn't bother to mention careers where styled hair and makeup are unnecessary since that's irrelevant to my point. For instance, I'm an event planner. I would never dream of attending one of my events without makeup and blown out hair. It would be inappropriate. At bare minimum, that takes me half an hour to do.

Since it apparently wasn't obvious, I do understand that there are many, many careers where makeup is unnecessary, like daycare providers, computer technicians, brain surgeons, retail workers in certain stores, freelance writers, stay at home moms, and fighter pilots. I'm sure you can think of even more than I can.

Seriously, all I was responding to was his statement that half an hour getting ready for work in the morning is too much and a waste of time, because that's not the case for everyone - sometimes it's necessary - and my misinterpretation of his statement about the makeup habits, or lack thereof, of people worth knowing.

[redbird]

I have never worked in an environment with a formal dress code for people of my gender. At one job, they called a meeting and said they wanted us to follow a dress code. Being somewhat clueless about such matters, I raised my hand and said, roughly, "Sure. What will the dress code be?" That got me an "um, er" and the topic was never raised again, because the people who thought there should be a dress code for employees could not agree on one they could put into words. (It struck me as a reasonable question, in the same way as if someone said that they wanted all office staff to keep the same hours, I would ask what time I was expected to arrive.)

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

I should offer the caveat that it's not written in an employee handbook or anywhere that I am required to wear makeup to work. But I work in an office where every woman wears makeup. On days I don't, because I'm running late or whatever, it's obvious. I feel self-conscious. It's the culture in my office, and there's nothing wrong with that. It only takes a few minutes in the morning to do, and I look polished and professional and feel more confident.

I agree that, if a business wants its employees to adhere to a dress code, the code should be easily articulated. It doesn't necessarily have to be formally written down, though. For example, my husband is a lawyer at an insurance defense firm. He is required to wear a suit and tie every day. That's not written in his employee handbook or his offer letter or anything, but when every man in the firm wears a suit and tie every single day, it would be inappropriate for him to come in wearing khakis and a polo shirt (or even dress pants, shirt, and tie with no jacket), though that would've been perfectly acceptable at his last firm which was more casual.

You have to evaluate your office culture and respond accordingly. Some workplaces are more formal than others, and some jobs require different attire from others. That's just a fact of life.

[redbird]

Changing such a culture from above, if doable, requires a willingness by managers to say what they're looking for.

I also note that by having that culture, your office is selecting against certain employees, in the same way that a manager who won't hire women who don't wear earrings is. Both are probably legal, though it would be interesting to see the discrimination lawsuit from someone whose religion teaches her not to paint her face.

[hamsterwoman]

Sorry, I should have clarified that, like you, I'm talking about people who work in an office (not fighter pilots or brain surgeons or computer techs or feelance writers). My colleagues and I are engineers of the cubicle variety (i.e. no physical component to the job), who work in an office and go to meetings, including meetings with folks outside our company (and, although this doesn't apply to me personally, even meetings with customers), and manage to do so while being simultaneously professional and often "bare-faced" or jeans-clad.

I understand you were responding to a specific comment -- but you were doing so with a very general statement ("A woman who goes to the office every day with a bare face and unbrushed hair will never be taken as seriously as a woman with well maintained hair and understated, polished makeup."). It does seem to have been non-obvious to a number of folks that you were talking about your own specific case (career in event planning) and not any woman working in an office ever as a professional.

[strangerface.livejournal.com]

I see a woman trying that hard at the workplace, and (yes, I've thought about this) all I can think is, either she's trying to use sex as a lever to either make up for her own perceived inadequacies or to gain some kind of advantage, or she's actively trying to attract someone's attention.
This statement implies that you think someone who wears a lot of makeup wants sex (to use as leverage or to attract attention). I don't think that's particularly true. I only usually wear base myself. But if I'm going to a meeting, I wear more makeup. But then, my industry is mostly female so I'm not trying to attract any of them (I'm straight). In fact, I feel more pressure to wear makeup around women than men. Women are more critical. Those beauty magazines and TV shows tell us how from the time we're a tween to the time we die. And they try to make us feel guilty for not getting decked out like we're going to the Oscars every day.

On the other hand, some people actually think makeup is fun to wear. Not me. But I've met makeup artists who believe painting someone's face is like painting a painting. Some young women wear a lot of makeup to "look older" (cover freckles and the like) because in their mind older means more serious. Some older women want to look younger, or are just used to wearing make up and feel funny without it.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

I frequently catch myself feeling sorry for people who don't know how to put on makeup. There's something about bad makeup that seems so sad to me, in a way bad fashion sense doesn't. It's kind of depressing. But I'm sure she thought she looked very pretty. That's the important thing, right?

I was definitely the caterpillar to her butterfly.

I doubt that very much. I'm sure you looked lovely, even with the orange vest.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I haven't a clue how to put on make up, never having done it. I do not accept your pity.

K.

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

You're willfully misinterpreting what I said, which is that people with overdone bad makeup jobs, like the woman Peg saw, make me feel a little sad.

If you have never put on makeup, then you're obviously not in that category.

You know what? Forget it. Never mind. There's nothing I can say. I'm out.

[aome.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the "superior" feeling is that you feel you are focusing on things that are more important, rather than the mode of the moment. She has chosen her own priorities, that of public opinion and pop culture. I don't think you should be scolding yourself - I think just your awareness of the different priorities you've chosen is an interesting enough lesson, something for you to consider when making your own choices - you don't strike me as the type to make any really harmful gestures from it.

It reminds me, though, of a conversation lis_mutant and I had the other day: we both acknowledge that we're not really into high fashion, being more jeans-and-tshirts sorts of gals - and not that we don't SOMETIMES like to dress up and put on a small amount of makeup, but being "fashionable" isn't really our thing. And yet, at the same time, we become a little self-conscious when around people who ARE dressed more fashionably, somehow more aware of the fact that ... we're not.

[ladyvorkosigan.livejournal.com]

Sorry, just a lurker here, but . . . I think you're right to be questioning your assumption that someone who is a few pounds "overweight" (over whose weight?) is automatically a stranger to exercise. She might be, or she might spent an hour at the gym after her morning work-out meticulously (if poorly, by most people's standards) applying make-up and changing into her shoes. She might just not be someone who gets really slim from exercise. They do exist.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

It was my reading of exactly the way she said "not far," almost with a tinge of disbelief, that is what made me think she was a stranger to exercise, not whatever her weight was (which was really in the normal range). And yes, I'm entirely aware that it is an assumption. She may be a demon swimmer who is unused to calculating what is a long vs. short bicyle ride, for all I know.

[airemay.livejournal.com]

Some of the most interesting conversations on LJ seem to happen here! You have a very interesting flist. :)

I know that I judge women who are heavily made up, especially if the look does not seem to go well with the rest of them. Part of this is my lifestyle. I don't wear much makeup, and some days I don't even comb my hair! I try to look myself, but better.

I have more self-confidence when I know that my dark circles are less noticable, and the random hive on my face is covered up. :) It has nothing to do with society being a sad, sad place where I can't go out bare-faced and feel free.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I'm frankly a little bit startled at the conversation this post has sparked. It is, after all, a story of an encounter that lasted all of three seconds! But something about it has made a lot of people want to respond.

[redbird]

I want to note that I am not carrying any "extra" pounds, and I suspect I weigh more than that woman. Nor am I stranger to exercise. I see women at the gym change out of shoes you couldn't run or cycle into, and skirts, suits, etc. into clothes very much like what I'm exercising in.

[darth-kittius.livejournal.com]

I mentally tagged this entry when I came across it on my flist to come back to and read after it got comments because I thought the discussion could be interesting. I didn’t expect it to be quite as interesting as it is below. I have to say I’m a bit baffled by the discussion.

I just don’t understand the connection between happiness and appearance in this context. To me it’s how you’re raised in combination with the decisions that you make that lead to the way you choose to present yourself to the world. And none of that, to me, relates to happiness -- because you can be happy or sad any way you look/act/dress.

I work with only a few people in my immediate office. There are three of us women about the same age. One dresses much as the woman you describe. My co-worker was raised by women who dress that way too; she was taught to wear make-up before leaving the house and never to change out of her high-heels, even if walking long distances. She would never ride her bike 5 miles, and although she too would say “good for you,” that doesn’t translate into her wanting to do it herself. She’s very happy in who she is and in the decisions she makes. She does not wish to be like me, nor does she expect me to decide to be more like her. She is the person that she wants to be and she recognizes that that decision is not the same for everyone.

It all comes down to your interests and how you want to spend your time. My friend enjoys fashion and make-up, so to her that hour she takes in the morning getting ready is enjoyable. I spend an hour when I get home watching sports center or watching a game. (For you it might be biking...) Neither of us would do the other’s routine -- she wouldn’t find the hour watching sports to be useful and I wouldn’t find the hour doing make-up enjoyable. It’s these decisions that make us different, if we all valued the same things, well, we wouldn’t be too interesting as human beings now would we?

/ramble