More re: Moral Values

[pegkerr]

Since the election, I've been pondering the issue of "moral values" which the media decided (rather without cause) tipped the election to Bush (22% of voters polled who voted for Bush said that moral values was the most important determinant for the vote. Which means, obviously, that for 78% who voted for Bush, it wasn't.)

I mentioned Lakoff's book, Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think, which minnehaha K & B lent to me. I think I must read this one, too, God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It by Jim Wallis. See an interview with Wallis here.

I highly recommend an excellent hour-long radio program on the Public Radio program "Speaking of Faith" that I heard this week: The Future of Moral Values:

We deconstruct the phrase "moral values," which has confused and divided Americans since November's election. As the second term of George W. Bush commences, political analyst Steven Waldman helps explore what these words do and do not convey to liberals and conservatives, and why they still matter. What is at stake when both sides fail to understand the moral convictions of the other?

The commentator, Krista Tippett, interviewed Steven Waldman, a journalist, political analyst, and Editor-in-Chief of Beliefnet, who wrote the provocative article "Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels," discussing why liberals and conservatives misunderstand each other. Extremely interesting.

Listen to the program here.

Comments

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

I made a "Liberal Moral Values" shirt at Cafepress. :)

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Remember, they call it "family values" or "moral values," but they're really just talking about sex.

B

{sigh}

[meerkat1.livejournal.com]

No they’re not.

As a moderate independent, who is a committed environmentalist, who voted for Clinton, who admires Al Gore almost to the point of adoration, and has disliked George W. Bush from the time I heard him debate Gore… I tell you... voting for Bush actually caused me pain this last year. But I did. And Kerry’s Senate voting record on what I view as essential freedoms and moral values was a huge part of my decision to change my vote. And pornography and gay rights just aren't on my radar as pivotal issues. So it isn’t about “sex” for me. And if anybody is interested I am willing to engage in civil discussions about my voting decisions. But that is just a segue into talking about what really bothered me about your comment. The oversimplification of the positions of the “others”.

What really frightens me about the after election commentary I’ve seen is that again everybody is looking for a “single thing” to pin the election on. And there isn’t a single thing.

It is folly to think that most people are single hot topic voters. I am not. Nor are most of the people I know. There is a pattern of things that most people care about and what they think are the solutions to the problems they see. And in a two party system that leaves people to put each thing they care about on opposing platforms of a balance.

Often the balance is pretty close to even going into major elections. Each side offers approaches to solutions closer to what the majority of people want on some issues and not on others. Gore was the only candidate I knew I was going to vote for from the start. And even then I left myself a small amount of room to consider the other guy.

A link to an interesting article on the “great divide” that “Isn’t” sums up a lot of what I have been thinking about in regards to “red vs blue”

“Americans can still find common ground, but, with assaults from politicians on both sides, it may be shrinking”:
http://g.msn.com/0MNBUS00/2?http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6453932/site/newsweek&&CM=EmailThis&CE=1

Excerpt from the article:
“America is not a polarized society, though its politics are polarized. "The great mass of American people . . . are for the most part moderate in their views and tolerant in their manner," writes political scientist Morris Fiorina of Stanford University in his new book, "Culture War? The Myth of a Polarized America." General attitudes on race and sexual preference have softened in recent decades. Divisions on many political issues exist, but they always have. Great passions are confined mainly to "activists in the political parties and various cause groups [many of whom] do in fact hate each other."


So please consider the possibility that most people are complex and it is disrespectful as well as shortsighted to assume they only care about one thing.

Re: {sigh}

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

"So please consider the possibility that most people are complex and it is disrespectful as well as shortsighted to assume they only care about one thing."

I have never thought otherwise.

But "moral values" is just about sex.

B

Re: {sigh}

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I must admit I'm surprised at this insistence, B. Could you clarify? Do you mean that for Conservatives only, moral values are about sex? Because for me, this picture is all about moral values, specifically the moral values reason I voted for Kerry as opposed to Bush.

I voted against Bush for a bunch of reasons (sex issues included), but I have to say that one of the chief ones was his pursuit of an unjust war, which to me (would you disagree?) is a non-sexual moral values issue.

I don't think that it's fair to say that to Conservatives only, moral values is about sex only, but to liberals it's broader (i.e., anti-war, progressive economic values, etc.) Could you explain the discrepancy?

Re: {sigh}

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

When you hear talk of "moral values," it's never justice, peace, kindness, charity, or any of the moral values you might find in the Christian Bible. It's always abortion or gay rights.

I'm reminded of the quote from the recent UCC press release, welcoming "any who have experienced the Christian message as a harsh word of judgment rather than Jesus' offering of grace."

B

Re: {sigh}

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

The Right's "moral values" does not include their feelings about war or torture. That's something else.

My moral values include those, though.

B

Re: {sigh}

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

If you don't mind me asking, what was your assessment and evaluation of Kerry's moral values that made you vote for Bush instead, and if necessary, can you explain how it is non-sexual in its concerns?

(see my answer to minnehaha B. below.)

Re: {sigh}

[meerkat1.livejournal.com]

I am willing to have this discussion, but my grandmother broke her hip yesterday and when into surgery. Which interrupted my work day significantly. It will take a few days for me to recover and find the time to write up my reply. Sorry for the delay.

Re: {sigh}

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

OK, sure. I'm up for a civil discussion about your voting decisions. Please tell me about the "essential freedoms and moral values" you believe Bush is going to protect. PLease tell me about Kerry's voting record and how that influenced your decision.

Thanks,

K. [please note that minnehaha B. is a different person than I]

Re: {sigh}

[meerkat1.livejournal.com]

Please see my response to PegKerr. I am not abandoning the debate but I do need to delay it a few days.

Also, I did start a response to Peg yesterday and found to my dismay that
http://www.vote-smart.org/
voting history site is under-construction right now and most of the information I read is not accessible to me just now. And it is important to note that *what* he was said when discussing reasons for his votes was a crucial part my decision making process.

I will be trying to reconstruct as much as I can, but we are at 7 or more months time distance. So it will be more impressions now than things I can quote verbatim.

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

This is an interesting article, too:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15644-2004Dec21?language=printer

I think if we could separate those who "feel" persecuted from those who actually *are* persecuted, we might get a long way to figuring out what's really going on in this country.

Then again, there's also that portion of my brain telling me that in the spiral of values, we're bound to spin around again....

Thank you

[meerkat1.livejournal.com]

For the links... they are a good collection of balanced pieces offering interesting views.

I may link them into my journal as well at some point if I find the time to do some writing.