Dump Therese, Anthony!

[pegkerr]

Or better yet, I hope she dumps you.

Elizabeth/Anthony: OTP

Comments

[charlietudor.livejournal.com]

I agree utterly.

[jimhines.livejournal.com]

I kind of wish Elizabeth had fought him off on her own. There's a part of me that cringes at the old "Good thing there was a man around to save you" bit.

And yeah, I'm waiting for Anthony to dump Terese too.

[em-h.livejournal.com]

I must admit, though Anthony seems a nice guy, I'm unthrilled by the whole thing. First, yeah, I wish Elizabeth had put up a better showing on her own; this isn't a great message to send to young women. Second, the whole Anthony/Terese storyline seems to be saying that a partnership in which the father is the primary caregiver for the child is just WRONG, and since that's the case in my family I take exception. (Also, I am slightly creeped out by Lynn Johnston's apparent belief that you should always marry the very first person you ever dated).

Anyway, I expect Terese will dump Anthony for some bad reason, in keeping with the general trend of the good characters always being blameless.

Sorry for the grumpiness, and in my own way I wish Elizabeth and Anthony well, but it's also kind of irking me.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Second, the whole Anthony/Terese storyline seems to be saying that a partnership in which the father is the primary caregiver for the child is just WRONG, and since that's the case in my family I take exception. Interesting, but that's not the way I read it at all. I read it as saying that Anthony values parenting very much whereas Theresa doesn't--which is why Theresa is not the right woman for him, but Elizabeth (who also very much wants a family) is. The fact that he's such a great deal is part of what makes him attractive to Elizabeth: and that's a very positive message, I think. In other words, the fact that he's a primary parent is what is right about Anthony.

I was just at the Better or Worse website, by the way. Apparently, she writes a letter as each character once a month. And Elizabeth's this month is about how she's creeped out by the guy who's following her, and she wishes she had learned martial arts--and how she's thinking about Anthony, and admiring how he's such a great dad.

[em-h.livejournal.com]

I do get that that's what she intends to say, but Terese comes off so nasty -- not just wrong for Anthony, but wrong in general, mean, jealous, grudging -- that sometimes what seems to be coming across is that a woman who chooses not to be the primary parent is simply a bad person.

There's an addictive quality to the strip, and Johnson's done some really valuable things in it, but she does have a tendency to black and white characterizations -- you can't just have a couple who aren't well-matched, it has to be a couple in which one partner is horrible in every way.

(On a slightly different note, Elizabeth's stalker seemed to be a bit of a pushover in fact -- a bit of determined girly-fighting would've probably been enough -- but, oh well.)

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Re: Liz and Anthony getting together, see my longer response to cakmpls here.

And as moony pointed out below:

I like that Elizabeth got a few good punches in but she did the right thing, really. She fought back but she used her voice as her real weapon - someone who is not trained to fight back often only antagonises their attacker, or hurts herself in the process. She did need help so she yelled and screamed and did everything she was supposed to do

Yeah, not as glamorous or satisfyingly kick-butt, but in that sort of situation, whatever works.

[dreadmouse.livejournal.com]

It would be nice if Liz & Anthony did end up together before things wrapped up. I'm going to miss this comic. :(

And dsnight, I agree, it would be nice if Liz had fought the guy off herself. I don't think it would have been realistic, however, given that Liz is smaller then her attacker, not combative, and has no self-defence training that I'm aware of. It's a sad fact of life that in most physical confrontations between a guy and a girl the guy has an overwhelming advantage.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

Miss the comic? Is it set to end anytime soon? I hope not! I really enjoy it too. It's part of my daily www.comics.com reading ;)

[dreadmouse.livejournal.com]

She's planning on winding the strip down in the next year or two. I don't know the exact date but I believe it's going to be near her 60th birthday. All good things...

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Bummer.

[aome.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I've really enjoyed how everyone has grown up in real time. No other comic does that. And I can understand the time will come when everyone will reach a certain point in their lives that it would probably just start to repeat itself to keep going. Better to stop while it's still wonderful, like C&H. Although I will miss FBaFW very much.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

It's a sad fact of life that in most physical confrontations between a guy and a girl the guy has an overwhelming advantage.

Hmm. Yes, I think this /is/ true - but the advantage in question is that both the girls and the guys so firmly believe in it.

How many movies have you seen in which a guy who is not normally a fighting type throws a wild punch at someone, and knocks them cold? And how often do people question the realism of the movie?

You don't need size or training to stomp on someone's feet when they're standing right behind you, or to bite them, hit, kick, pull hair (and if you haven't had your hair pulled in a while, you may be underestimating how damn painful that is - I know it doesn't sound like much, but you'd be surprised) or to grab a pen, pencil, pair of scissors, letter opened, or staple remover, and start whaling wildly at someone. Will it be as effective as trained combat? Probably not. Will it surprise the hell out of an attacker and save a life? Quite possibly.

What stops girls - and women - from fighting back effectively usually has little to do with their actual abilities and almost everything to do with the fact that in their own minds they've lost before they even start - and in /their/ minds, the attackers have already won.

And that's why, even if this were purely realistic, I still would have a problem with it - because in repeating this reality uncritically, it reinforces it.

But what really gets me is that they guy who rushes to her rescue doesn't know how to fight, either. He has 'something to fight for' which makes him suddenly transcend his ignorance and inability, and transforms him, for a minute or two, into a fighter to be reckoned with. But Elizabeth never for a moment transcends /her/ limitations to fight, even to protect herself.

Is protecting herself not 'something worth fighting for'? Or is it only men who get to suddenly discover they can fight when the moment is upon them?

To some extent, of course, it is--because the men tend to believe they can, and the women tend to believe they can't.

I like FBOFW, but this strip is....not going on my recommended reading list.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Elizabeth's letter this month at the website is interesting, take on this discussion: she regrets that she never took martial arts.

[dreadmouse.livejournal.com]

I'm drifting far afield here, so my apologies to anyone if this seems off-topic or longwinded. I think there are two key issues here, one about "For Better or for Worse" as consistent art, and one about real life self defence.

To some extent, of course, it is--because the men tend to believe they can, and the women tend to believe they can't

I fully agree with you here, and in much of your post. Somebody who fights back is far more likely to successfully defend themselves then somebody who doesn't, whether they be man or woman. It is very possible for somebody who is lighter and weaker then their opponent to "win" a fight if they have an edge in pure aggression i.e. they are willing to do damage and believe that they can.

However, the character of Elizabeth (speaking from a literary point of view) has been consistently non-violent for as long as I can remember, except for the occasional play-scuffle with her brother way back when. I don't think it would have been true to the character if she had manifested a street-fighting level of aggressiveness and managed to beat off her attacker. Having a hero swoop in to save her is fairly hackneyed, I agree, but it's a more believeable resolution then having Liz take her attacker apart.

What I would like to see next is for Liz to realize her vulnerability and take some self-defence courses so she would be better able to protect herself if such an event ever occurs again. I think that might be a better message for young women than leading them to believe that they will be able to easily handle an attack. A woman may be able to beat off a larger, stronger man but if she does it probably won't be easy. Her odds are so much better if she is just a little bit prepared.

I think Ms. Johnston deserves credit for taking on this risky storyline. This is scary stuff, especially for a family cartoon. I don't like that women will read this and think "what would I do if that happened to me?" I don't like that things like this happen in real life, not just in books and movies.

[jimhines.livejournal.com]

Another piece of the argument is that most perpetrators deliberately select potential victims who appear less likely to fight back. Regardless of whether or not a woman would be able to defend herself against a particular man, if she seems willing to try, that's often enough to make the potential attacker look for another victim.

Naturally, this is a generalization, not an absolute rule. But most self-defense courses specifically designed for women tend to focus as much on attitude and confidence than the actual tactics.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

She's also had a history of scuzzy people taking advantage of her. (Her BF in college with the dimple on his chin, say.)

I'm really glad (in this specific circumstance) she tried to defend herself. I'm way less glad that she had to have a Knight In Shining Armor, but whatever, Men Are Protective Of Women in this strip.

[moony]

I've always been taught that if someone attacks you and you find yourself unable to fight them off, use your voice, make as much noise as you can. She did get in a good punch and when it became apparent that it wasn't going to be enough, she screamed.

It's what I would do and have done, in similar situation. I really do need to look into self-defense classes, though now I just carry mace.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I sense that Therese may already have left Anthony, which is why he's been on his own with the baby. (I can dream, anyway.)

[neonnurse.livejournal.com]

Funny, that's exactly what *I* thought!

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

I am SO glad I'm not the only one obsessively following this story!

[aome.livejournal.com]

I am SO with you on the OTP thing. I've been rooting for them all along, and was THRILLED to see Anthony appear today. Whee!!!

Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing some happiness for Lawrence, too.

[moony]

I thought he was happy? He and Nick are life-partners and run the greenhouse?

[aome.livejournal.com]

Nick is his partner? I didn't realize that; must've forgotten. I thought his greenhouse partner was just a business partner.

[moony]

There are bios for all the character and I am pretty sure I saw that Lawrence and Nick are together. :-)

<3

[dreamflower]

LOL! I was thinking about posting on this strip myself--I guessed right away that it was Anthony who was rescuing her, it seems clear that things are going to move in the direction of them finally getting together; but, given that it was unrealistic that *she* fight him off herself, I kind of wish it had been her brother or her dad. Or, as my DH suggested, maybe Ruby paying a surprise visit. It would have made it more a a surprise, more interesting. Still, I have to say, I agree Elizabeth/Anthony have always be OTP to me.

Has anyone been following Funky Winkerbean? Talk about an evil cliffie! Wally's been standing on that mine for over a week now. And knowing Tom Batiuk, it is a distinct possibility that he *might* very well get blown up. He's never shrunk from doing *Evil Things* to his nice characters!

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

It should have been Candace! Candace could have whipped Howard's butt.

[serenya-loreden.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wish he would! she's not a good pairing for him.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I'm curious as to why you wish Therese would dump Anthony, rather than the other way around.

I'd like to see Anthony and Liz get together, in a way, yet I think it was clear from the beginning that Therese was a bitch on wheels and ill-matched to him, so I wonder what characteristic in Anthony led him to marry her.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

What pixelfish said below:

I don't see any solid way to put Anthony and Liz together as characters that doesn't undermine their own moral compasses, which is why Therese would have to do something.

I've done a lot of thinking on the subject of when does it pass the moral smell test to end a marriage. A whole lot of things led to this process of thought: critiquing Komarr for Lois McMaster Bujold, reading Middlemarch by George Elliot, which is, among other things, the story of two unhappily married couples; it is clear that the man in one couple and the woman in the other were decent people who should have found and picked each other, but instead they both chose totally unsuitable people who made them miserable. Also talking with kijjohnson for the past six months.

But one of the first times I thought about it was when I saw The Best Years of Their Lives. Ever see that? The set up is remarkably similar to FBoW: A decent man (Fred) is unhappily married to the wrong woman (Marie), but is attracted to another woman (Peggy), daughter of a man (Al) and a woman (Milly) who correspond in the story to Elly and John. He fights his attraction to Peggy, but she gradually realizes that Marie is really wrong for him. There is a scene I've always remembered where Peggy passionately tells her parents that she's going to "break up that marriage" and tells them, "You don't understand; you've never had any problems."

I can quote Milly's speech practically from memory. She looks at Al with a little smile and says, "How many times have I told you I hated you, and believed it in my heart? How many times have you said you were sick and tired of me, that we were all washed up? How many times have we had to fall in love all over again?"

Fred doesn't end up with Peggy until Marie leaves him. I learned something about marriage watching that movie: you can make it work, even if you have doubts, but only if you are both willing to do the work. But if one person (like Marie) decides they want out, it can't survive.

I remember talking with Rob about this insight when we were engaged. I value fidelity very much, but I told him before we got married that I couldn't promise I would never divorce him: you just don't know what might happen in life (maybe he would become an ax murderer). But I promised that as long as he kept trying, I would, too. That's why I think Anthony could save his marriage, and might even learn to be happy with Therese. That would be the moral thing to do. But it would only work if she is willing to work, too, and all signs say she won't.

I remember that great scene from Lois McMaster Bujold's sequel to Komarr, A Civil Campaign, when Ekaterin asked Miles how he could make another promise (to marry her) when he had broken his word so badly when he lied to his surperiors and got cashiered out of the service (as she had when she broke her own first marriage wedding vow). He pointed to his navel and said, "What, didn't you get an honor re-set button? Mine's right here."

Another thing going on here: Lynn Johnson based this story on her own family, but this marriage is her second marriage. I would imagine it's a deeply personal story for her to have Elizabeth end up with someone who has been married once before.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I may be reading something into it that wasn't there, but it was clear to me (as I say, maybe it was me) that Anthony knew Therese was wrong for him and married her anyway. Liz knew Therese was wrong for him and didn't grab him by the shoulders and say, "Wake up, this woman is wrong for you. Maybe we have a future and maybe we don't, but that's totally separate from her being wrong for you." For that matter, I think Therese knew Anthony was wrong for her, too. So I think all their moral compasses were questionable, on this issue, from the get-go.

(This is a ridiculous amount of analysis of comic strip characters, but . . .)

I have a different perspective, because I left a marriage that he was willing to work on and I wasn't. There was no way that each of us could be true to himself/herself and still keep the marriage going. There was no way that we could live a life together in which we would both be happy, satisfied, fulfilled. No amount of "work" on the marriage was going to change that.

That's why I think Anthony could save his marriage, and might even learn to be happy with Therese.

I'm sorry, but this gives me the creeps. The idea that someone would stay with me who only "might"--someday, somehow--"learn to be happy with" me just . . . makes me slightly sick to my stomach. Why on earth would anyone want such a relationship? How could it possibly constitute a "marriage" in any meaningful way?

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I want to make clear that this is the way I feel, and I understand that others feel differently.

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

Liz could still deal with the legal fallout of being stalked and assaulted--filing a police report, putting a restraining order out, etc.

I'd have to say that I don't see any solid way to put Anthony and Liz together as characters that doesn't undermine their own moral compasses, which is why Therese would have to do something....but as noted, that renders her as a complete bitch stereotype. (Not that she's not on that train already.)

I have more thoughts but I have visitors so I'll save 'em for later.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

See my answer to cakmpls here.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

AUGH NO! I miss Warren!!

[moony]

I knew it would be Anthony. I like that Elizabeth got a few good punches in but she did the right thing, really. She fought back but she used her voice as her real weapon - someone who is not trained to fight back often only antagonises their attacker, or hurts herself in the process. She did need help so she yelled and screamed and did everything she was supposed to do.

I guarantee though that she will probably start taking Karate or something after this.

I love the waltz of Elizabeth and Anthony. It's like Mike and Dee - they had to go off and grow up and live their lives before they could be soul mates. I remember Deanna from 'way back in the 80s when she and Mike were little kids and Mike had SUCH a crush on her. The way Elizabeth and Anthony are progressing is similar - there's some adulthood that has to happen in its own way before they can come together (because they so have to).

Terese is really annoying. She behaves like she's just following a shopping list of things she had to do. Marry, breed, and then have the big-shot career. She wants it all but can't be arsed to actually deal with it once she's got it. I think she does not like not being in control and motherhood isn't about control. Anthony understands that parenting is sacrifice and compromise, and Terese is not willing to do that.

OH I love this comic. I still cry when I think about Farley. :-s

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

See my responsive comment here.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Yes, Lynn has never shied away from difficult topics: Farley's (the dog)death, Marion's (the grandmother) death and the sensitive way she's handled Grandpa Jim's remarriage, Lawrence's coming out. I'm sorry to hear they'll be ending soon too; hadn't heard that before. I've read the character letters for a few years; I sort of thing of them as once-a-mon blogs.

The problem I have with Elizabeth and Anthony ending up together is that she loves where she lives and the adventure of seeking out a new place, while he's never shown any desire to leave home - he attended college in his own town, married someone he met there, and works for someone he's known half his life. I can't see them happy together unless he finally decides it's time for adventure (Francoise in tow, naturally). I still vote for Warren, too, and for Anthony ditching Therese for someone who appreciates his integrity.

[wintercreek]

Right on! Yesterday I guessed that was Anthony coming to help, and I was so pleased that he did. Like many, I'm a little troubled by the fact that Anthony's marriage to Therese must end for him to be with Liz, because I think that will be a hard experience for him. But I also think they're ultimately very compatible with each other and will do well.

On a side note, just as I instantly concluded that it was Anthony and had been set up to be since Gordon took Liz to visit Anthony, my mother concluded that it was John because of the earlier scene where John went out to Howard's car. I've been thinking about what that means for my mother as a parent of two (almost) grown children (I'm 22, just about Liz's age, and my brother is 18) and for me as a young woman looking for a partner.