Apparently I am helping to propagate the patriarchy

[pegkerr]

I just don't need this.

Perhaps I am oversensitive right now because I'm going through a lousy time, but although I consider myself a feminist, I am never crossposting to feminist again.

I just don't need to be attacked like this because I posted about trying to fairly solve a common household problem.

[I will keep comments on for this post, but with this warning: if you want to chime in any further about how I am screwing up my marriage and my efforts to raise my children, just stow 'em, okay? I jolly well don't want to hear any more.]

Comments

[cmpriest.livejournal.com]

I hear ya. I used to be a member of several feminist communities, but I never managed to achieve just the right stance to suit them. So I gave up.

[sdn.livejournal.com]

my GOD. i read four of those other comments and my head exploded.

who fucking cares about the patriarchy? PICK UP THE GODDAMNED PAPER

i am so sorry.

[channe.livejournal.com]

Maybe you're not the kind of feminist that can be defined.

Which is a good thing.

[serenya-loreden.livejournal.com]

Sadly, communities tend to get into a bit of a group-think mode, which can cause rapid degeneration of threads. That definitely got ugly :(

[incandescens]

What a . . . school of piranhas. No, you really don't need that sort of comment. Sympathy.

[http://users.livejournal.com/anam_cara_/]

Holy cow! I *got* what you were saying without you having to re-articulate it a million different ways. Cripes.

And boy do I hear you on not wanting to be the nagging-chore police, that's the worst part of mothering and yet, what can you do, aside from these sort of family discussions? And at 9 & 12, sure a few reminders here and there may be necessary, but constant prodding (nagging), no, you are not out of line to expect more responsibility to be taken.

Grr. I can't believe some of the reactions!

*hugs* You are a great mom and a wonderful feminist in my opinion!

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

When I think about it objectively, my husband does the cooking and the bill-paying. I do the nagging. I'm the one who knows that just saying "Have you done your homework?" is in no way sufficient, that you have to say "Have you finished your science project? Can I see it? No, if it isn't written down, it isn't done yet." So the emotional upkeep of various sorts is mine. Sometimes I am well and truly sick of it, but sometimes my husband is sick of being responsible for supper.

So in my peculiar case, the nagging is my chore.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

Yech.

What an unpleasant and wildly counterproductive set of responses. Glad you're annoyed with them instead of thinking it's somehow your problem.

[bordergold.livejournal.com]

*snuggle* I think you are a frabulous mother (well, from what I've read). And, uh, asking your kids to pick up wrapping paper is so not propagating the patriarchy. It's more like promoting family-pitching-in-ness when it comes to household chores.

My family is also awful about who does the chores. My dad, my brother, and I don't mind clutter; it drives my mother crazy. So her way of dealing with it is to use a nice big broom and sweep all of our clutter into our own rooms (or in my father's case, his study). Basically, we're allowed to be as messy as we want, as long as we don't spill out into the communal regions.

Daddy still works in a pigsty, as he does not mind it, but my brother and I have learned to do basic cleaning if we want to get up from our beds to go to the bathroom in the dark without breaking our necks tripping over ungodly things like three years of TIME magazines. I dunno if there's any scholarly way of measuring this, but I'm fairly certain that it's a fair system.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Sympathies.

As far as I'm concerned, the model you're setting your daughters is that a plane can't fly on one wing, and a household can't run on one responsible person. (Or shouldn't.)

[dejaspirit.livejournal.com]

Amen to that.

oh patriarchy, schmatriarchy.

[ame-chan.livejournal.com]

wow. And this, kids, is why I stay the hell away from feminist groups, even though I am one. Sharks smell chum in the water - this is nothing more than a feeding frenzy. Sorry they're snapping at you.

[jemyl.livejournal.com]

Peg, it was a long time before I finally realized that the way I don't get rid of things is actually OCD. It has been exacerbated by a robbery, twice of my place here when I was living alone. That scared me so much that it just made the saving worse. I have fought with every husband and serious boyfriend as well as with both of my parents over this at various times in my life. I hid it from everyone, including myself for a long time. I really do like to see things all picked up and nice, but it has to be able to be done completely or I cannot seem to get started.

Bill, before his stroke, did a lot to help me to understand and accept my OCD because he accepted it and would just pick up whenever he could. He is also somewhat of a saver and couldn't pick it up just right of course. I learned, through his love and lots of hugs, that I must look the other way and not criticize when he did help me out. Our place is not neat now. It is messy, but not so much dirty messy and cluttered messy. As I go through others, once more, being in the house via hospice etc., I have had to learn not to be defensive when they ask me about fire escape plans and such. I am sure to them it appears awful. It likely would to me too if I couldn't forgive myself and know that EACH PERSON OR COUPLE HAS TO FIND WHAT WORKS FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILY AND TO HELL WITH WHAT OTHERS WHO DO NOT WALK IN YOUR SHOES THINK ABOUT IT.

You and Rob and the girls have put in place a mechanism for solving problems and airing complaints. You used this system. What the rest of the family said and how they reacted is whatever it is and part and parcel of your family dynamic in working out a solution that is OK with each of you. THAT IS ALL THAT COUNTS AND THOSE SELF-RIGHTEOUS CHARACTERS WITH A CAPITAL B on that other forum can go pound rock salt!

I am so sorry that you had to defend your family to those B-witches! Each family is unique and what works for one is not necessarily what works for another. We don't have cookie cutter clone people. Nor do we have cookie cutter clone families. How boring it would be if we did! Face it, Kiddo, most of those people raking you over the coals would more likely than not spend thirteen days screaming about the birthday paper and by so doing ruin all of the joy of that birthday and likely of many into the future. (Pardon me for calling you "Kiddo" but being 64 plus lets me kid and kiddo a bit more than most folk.) If more families took the approach you used, I believe that we would have a much healthier society. What a wonderful example you and Rob are for your girls! You are teaching them to use family meetings to solve problems rather than shouting temper tantrums which usually don't solve anything anyway. Congratulations.

When someone comments that I must be some kind of crackpot, please feel free to remind them that I am at least a crackpot with a Master's Degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling from a prestigious place i.e. The University of Santa Clara. To me, your psychology and family dyamics are quite sound and sane. You go gal!

[dreadmouse.livejournal.com]

Well said, Jemyl. Every family needs to find their own path.

[franticgoddess.livejournal.com]

At this point in time, I am 19 years old. When I was your daughters age my mother tried almost the exact same experiment- MANY times. The situation was very, very similar. And What happened? For the most part it worked. It took a while, I was probably 15 or so before it really, really stuck (I'm embarassed to say. Most of the time it wasn't that I didn't see it, it was either I was too lazy to care, or I figured it wasn't mine and I didn't have to take care of it. Boy was I wrong.). It used to be a struggle to get me to clean my room, not leave a trail of destruction behind, but after my mother's numerous attempts to get me to see what needed to be done, that changed. My room is organized, I do the dishes etc., without being asked. Dad is generally more cooperative as well, doing more than just the minimal of what is asked when it comes to indoor-cleaning-things mom used to only do. It took a little while to get there, but it's there. So yeah, while I'm 19 and know nothing about raising a family, I think you're doing pretty darn good.

That doesn't really have a whole lot to do with the debate-ish stuff in the thread, but it's a little bit of hope for you, I hope :)

[archmage45.livejournal.com]

From my ripe old age of 25 I can remember the same sort of arguments/discussions in my family, and it did eventually take. Not overnight, but it did happen.

Be strong, don't let stupid people get you down, and keep doing what you feel is right for you and yours!

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Oh Peg, I'm really sorry. I liked reading your original post, and was thinking of a response, altho didn't know how great it would be to have yet another person you don't know chiming in....I consider myself a feminist too, and I'm angry at and ashamed for that community. That is NOT helpful behavior, and not particularly feminist to my mind, either.

[ceilidh]

This is why I have never, ever posted to that community asking for advice. Occasionally I'll chime in on a conversation, but I never make posts there. I don't need that sort of ivory-tower criticism of my life.

For what it's worth I think your experiment was interesting and you have valid concerns about the way things are going in your house. And I think you're doing a great job with your daughters. You're a very cool mom. :)

[wilfulcait.livejournal.com]

Peg, I read the comments on your post and boy did they get up my nose... then I read a bunch of other posts and threads in that community. Wow. I'm a feminist, and those people are whiny and self-righteous.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

I can see why you're annoyed.

But reading through all that (and at least the attacks weren't universal; several posters did seem to get it, especially after your first further explanation) did give me one thought that I hope is constructive. If you do have to institute penalties for work not being done, would it be possible to have the girls decide on their own? In advance, I mean, during a family meeting, not at the time the punishment is doled out. Even better might be to have penalties for you and Rob, though probably different ones from the girls.

I said "you and Rob, not just Rob, because though it doesn't sound like you're the problem, if you get punished on the occasions when you do slack (assuming basic human failings :-) it helps show fairness and consistent consequences.

[http://users.livejournal.com/anam_cara_/]

I hope it doesn't have to come down to penalties, etc., but perhaps if it is, something should be implemented so Peg isn't the only cleaning 'cop'

[tdanaher.livejournal.com]

I hope a little humor isn't out of place here, but wow, your story of the wrapping paper was an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond a few years ago. In that program, the husband and wife (Ray and Debra) came home from a trip, put their suitcase with the clothes in it on a landing at the bottom of the living room stairs, and neither one moved the case after that for weeks. Ray expected Debra to move it and unpack, she expected him to do it, and eventually he planted some limburger cheese in it to get her to do something about it. This backfired when he eventually needed it to go on another trip. Maybe you should have waited everyone out until they needed wrapping paper for gifts :)

[dragonpaws.livejournal.com]

It's so strange... isn't part of feminism the idea that women can do things the way they think they ought to be done WITHOUT society, or other women, or other men, or anybody breathing down their necks and saying "You're betraying the system! You're ruining it for the rest of us! Your little household actions are the FOUNDATION UPON WHICH SOCIETY AS WE KNOW IT RESTS, little woman! Do it the way we think you should or you're NOT A REAL WOMAN!" I mean, men get to do the best they can and screw up. What's with this idea that women can't mess up or do things differently from one another? Why do women have to be pod-people? You'd think feminists, of all people, would recognize that women get a disporportionate amount of shit dumped on them on a daily basis and hardly need more from their fellow feminists. I'd take a pat on the back and a "you're doing your best" from the world's most hardened misogynist and find it more uplifting than the nonsense those women are throwing at you.

Which is to say, my sympathies with your crap with them and with Rob. From what I read, you do an uncommonly good job of doing what you perceive of as important within your family.

[loup_noir]

Wow.

The only people who know if a relationship is working are those involved in it. Patriarchy, matriarchy, oligarchy, anarchy, whatever, what matters is the people involved.

I'm sorry that the feminist community acted like that. I know one other person involved with this community and she's had a rough time with them, too.

I think your experiement was an interesting one and was waiting to see what the action:consequences amounted to.

I'd suggest chocolate or exercise, maybe loud music and then a lot of hugging.

[misia.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness for both of us that nowhere is it written than one must read an LJ community to be a feminist.

At the risk of being vulgar, Peg, I say fuck 'em right in the ear. With a rusty spork.

That bullshit ain't feminism, it's penny-ante pissanterie.

[cliosfolly.livejournal.com]

Yikes! What an aggravating set of reactions to have recieved in that community!

As others have said, your description of Fiona and Delia's reactions to chores sounds so much like me at a similar age and through my teen years--and, sadly, even my early twenties! My mother tried a variety of techniques to encourage my brother and me to complete our chores and it usually boiled down to being disallowed tv time or rec time until chores were done, although at other times different motivators were applied (being allowed to cook a cake or cookies was one thing that I recall worked for me).

The reason that I mention this is that, although I was quite lazy and slovenly when younger, as I passed my mid-twenties and started living in apartments of which I was proud and thus was willing to take the pains to keep looking nice, and because I became aware of how relaxing and enjoyable a room could be sans clutter, the chore habits my mom (and, to a lesser extent, my dad) tried to instill in me came back to the fore.

Although this isn't helpful in the short term, I hope in the long term it might provide a more reassuring outlook: and you'll just have to visit Fiona and Delia frequently to take advantage of their housecleanliness then, if now is not likely!

[naomikritzer]

I have occasionally joked about being a bad feminist (because I'm a stay-at-home mother, because I dislike NOW and don't much care for Hilary Clinton, and because if I can't laugh, I don't want to be part of your revolution). Is there a "bad_feminists" LJ community?

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

I'd join that comm. 8-) I'm a bad feminist too, but for different reasons, heh. I'm sure everyone (except, of course, the Perfect Feminists commenting on Peg's post) has her own list...

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Oh, (BADWORD).

As a retired parent, your approach struck me as remarkably sensible. You live in that house. Your critics don't. Offer them your choice of rude options.

[sternel.livejournal.com]

So if you'd had a son and you made him clean up, that would have been OK?

I differentiate between feminists and (my father's term) "feminazis". It's one thing to believe in equality. It's another to think that teaching young children how to take care of themselves and their environment means suporting those evil mens. That community is misnamed, and you'd do better among people with firing braincells.

This icon is for you. =)

[lenora-rose.livejournal.com]

Nitpick, and maybe this will come across as just as strident and dictatorial as the idiots peg kerr encountered, but I have to say it.

Feminazis was coined by a mysogynist and is frequently used to deride even sensible feminists. It's started to really bother me. I've been trying to find a better term for the extremist end - so far, "female supremacists" seems to have allthe right contotations without dagging down feminism or playing into the history of a mysogynist's favourite term.

From a terrible feminist

[megd.livejournal.com]

I got what you meant. No one was doing what was asked of them expecting you to nag or do it. Personally, I see it as a sign of the roles people play on any relationship, rather than a pure feminist issue. But then again, my mom was the cleaner, my dad the cook and they both stayed after us for our chores, which we didn't get to pick. The only concession made was that I never had to run the lawnmower. I was far too likely to run over my own feet.

Personally, I think you're doing a great job. The girls seem well adjusted and happy.