Book club tonight

[pegkerr]

I have been invited to speak at two book clubs this week about The Wild Swans. The first one is tonight. We here in Minnesota joke about Minnesota Nice, a cultural inability to say anything negative about anything. I am curious to see whether Minnesota Nice will operate tonight, since I have heard that the woman who suggested the book to the group and invited me has gotten some angry flak from some in the group about having The Wild Swans nominated as a book club choice. Apparently, more than one person got as far as Chapter 12, the bathhouse scene, and put aside the book in disgust, never finishing it. Nancy says that some members are conservative, believing, among other things, that gays can be turned into heterosexuals if they try hard enough.

So it should be interesting. I have been to six to eight book club meetings, and the reaction has always been extremely positive. It will be my first time facing an audience where at least some are upset by what I've written. Like I've said, I am interested to see whether they will accordingly remain silent during the meetings, which would be the typical Minnesota impulse.

The second book club, I've been told, will have no such problems. The friend/member who nominated the book to that group is a gay woman.

Comments

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

Yikes! Good luck!
(Try not to take anything said personally)

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Good luck.

You could take the high road and say that it's not your place to debate politics. Or you could be honest and tell them to take their hate and intolerance outside.

B

[next-bold-move.livejournal.com]

In the recent Frontline special on AIDS, there was a moment in an interview with Franklin Graham that seems relevant, even if I don't agree with him about all of it. He does find a place of compassion and decency even if he is a conservative Christian.

the_red_shoes talked about it here (http://the-red-shoes.livejournal.com/828813.html) not too long ago.

[pameladean]

I'm glad you'll have the second book club to take the taste of the first one out of your mouth.

I too am curious about how the overall attitude that conservatives can be as rude as they like about certain issues has been interacting with Minnesota Nice.

Good luck.

P.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

I trust the folks at the first club will at least be willing to listen.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

We shall see.

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Congrats, and good luck. (If you need back up, let me know.)

[handworn.livejournal.com]

conservative, believing, among other things, that gays can be turned into heterosexuals if they try hard enough.

Uh, yeah, guys, try and explain to an alcoholic or addict how easy it is to fight how you feel. How's that "Just say no" thing going so far?

[trogon.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you mean well, but I don't appreciate being compared to an alcoholic in this fashion.

[handworn.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with saying that feelings and how people react to their own feelings are a situation pretty much common to the human condition. I also think it's possible to compare what people think of others' feelings without agreeing with any particular opinion. Alcoholism is generally agreed to be a problem; homosexuality is not universally considered that way. But both stem from emotions. We ought to be able to talk about all these things in terms of basic principles. Of how we humans feel, and what we think of those feelings, and what we do, and where lies the harm, if any.

If it would make it less personal for you, turn it around and argue the position, just for argument's sake, that alcoholism is OK. Then, I hope, you'll see what I mean.

[trogon.livejournal.com]

It may just be a matter of striking too close to home, but I can't quite figure out the point you're trying to make. Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

Person from the scary book group: "Gay people can change if they want to."

You: "No, changing things like that is hard. Look at alcoholics."

Them: "Okay, let's look at alcoholics. What they're doing is bad, and so we as a society consider that unacceptable and have frameworks to help them change, because we know it is hard. When I say 'gay people can change' I want to create that same social framework to help them through that hard change."

What I don't understand is how, having now made your analogy, you can continue with it in a helpful manner. Could you explain what you'd say
next, in this hypothetical scenario?

Perhaps comparing it to religion would be more fruitful -- if you aren't up to arguing that sexual orientation is not a choice, or if the people you're talking with aren't receptive to that argument, making an analogy to something that is explicitly a deeply-held choice but that doesn't carry the negative weight of alcoholism would be a better idea.

(By the way, Peg, good luck with the book club!)

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

I'm uncomfortable the whole link between "treat people decently" and "they can't help being the way they are." We should treat people decently REGARDLESS. If we say bigotry against gays is wrong because homosexuality is not a choice, does that mean religious bigotry is ok because people can change their religion to avoid persecution? Ick. Been there, done that, got the mezuzah.

Good luck, Peg. I'm very glad you're talking about this with people who don't take such ideas for granted and see them as obvious. I know it's hard work, but terribly important. Thank you for taking it on.

[redbird]

Try comparing heterosexuality to alcoholism, as a difficult thing to fight but bad for you. Consider dealing with people who treat your marriage as at best the unfortunate effect of your disease, and having to defend yourself and explain, over and over, that you've tried being homosexual and can't manage it.

I'm not suggesting that heterosexuality is a disease, or a weakness that you should be trying to overcome. Rather, that exercise might give you some idea of why this analogy bothers people, and why we feel neither comforted nor supported by the suggestion that the reason we haven't become heterosexual is because it's difficult and we don't have a 12-step program.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

That *will* be interesting! Let us know how it goes?

[snippy]

I think it's wonderful that they invited you, and I hope they both go well.

[airemay.livejournal.com]

Wow, I can't wait to read about how that goes! :)

[cph9680.livejournal.com]

Good luck. If they can't see through their own bigotry and understand that that is the BEST book that has ever been written, well screw them!