More re cooking for ingrates: Likes, Dislikes, and Power Struggles

[pegkerr]

cakmpls and mizzlaurajean and I got into a series of comments on my earlier post about Cooking for Ingrates, and I thought I'd marshall my thoughts in a new post.

Specifically, mizzlaurajean responded to my comment "I hate cooking for my ungrateful family" by asking, quite reasonably, "Then why do it?" I replied:

Because I love cooking (or I would if anyone would appreciate it). Because Rob, comparatively is a much worse cook than me, and if it were up to him, they would eat very badly indeed. Because these are the prime years for them to lay down the calcium in their bones that they will need when they are old to prevent hip fractures. Because Delia is rather underweight and I'm worried about her growing properly. Because if they don't get breakfast, they do badly in school. Because when Delia becomes hypoglycemic her mood becomes so monstrous that the whole family suffers for it. Because if no one tries to teach them how to eat right, how will they learn about how to read labels, and what foods have the vitamins they need, and why they should eat multigrains and avoid trans fats?

Because I'm genetically programmed to look after them and nurture them and care for them.

Because I love them, and preparing food for them is a way of showing love. Which, I suppose, is why it bothers me so much when they refuse it.

Rob added that there's another practical reason: according to household rules, if I cook, I don't have to do the dishes.

cakmpls commented:

Sure, we want to do right by our kids, but there's a limit. Having now lived though two cycles of family (that is, the one in which I was the child and the one in which I was the parent), I am absolutely convinced that food is an area where families have huge control issues, and that's 100% bad. In the long run, I think that people have far worse problems with the fallout/aftermath of the control struggle than with any bad diet whatsoever.

The fact that preparing food is a way you show love is possibly a large part of the problem here. I bet that you are far more "invested" in food that the rest of them. When they refuse your food, they are not refusing your love; to them, food is just food, and they like it or they don't.

This is something I've actually given a lot of thought over the years during all the angst about food in our family. I have consciously told myself repeatedly, "Remember that if they reject the food, they are not rejecting you. Don't take it personally." I know this, but it still hurts when they do refuse what I make. So what is going on? Well, what you know consciously and what you experience emotionally are two different things.

I think, upon further thought, that there is also one other aspect here: food is just such a huge source of pleasure in my life. I love tastes and textures, and I love to share what gives me pleasure. Haven't you ever experienced this? You love a book, or a movie, and you recommend it to someone else, and you're so thrilled when they respond, "Wow, I'm so glad you told me about it. Now I love it, too!" I had an argument with my sister Cindy years ago that really sticks in my memory. I was asking her opinions about various films, and she was extremely disparaging about just about any one I praised. At one point of the conversation, she said to me in total seriousness: "I don't like the kind of films you like, Peg. I like good movies." Upon thinking it over, I realized that our sibling relationship growing up was rather fraught: perhaps because we were so close in age we often battled each other. In the course of the following conversation I challenged us both to step outside of the pattern we seemed to have unconsciously fallen into, to define ourselves in opposition to each other: if you like this, that means that I can't. It was a sort of a power struggle between us that until that day I hadn't even realized was going on. "When I find something I like," I told her, "I really want to share it with people I love, like you. When I see you enjoying something I like, that doubles my own pleasure. When you refuse to like it on the grounds that I like it, that's immensely frustrating to me."

I can imagine cakmpls replying with something she has often said in comments before: don't apply the Golden Rule according to what you want. It should be applied according to what the other person wants. If Fiona gets pleasure in white pasta sprinkled with parmesan cheese, shouldn't that be enough for me, as long as I make sure she gets a vitamin pill, too? Well, I also happen to like white pasta sprinkled with parmesan cheese, personally. But I also like cold melon soup, and spicy Thai food, and baked halibut topped with fresh mango salsa.

It's as if I'm taking the kids through an art museum, and they refuse to look at any painting that has any but three specific colors in it: black, beige and white. "But what about Picasso?" I cry. "What about Monet, what about El Greco, what about Rembrandt? You're missing so much!" It doesn't really convince me to tell me that they'll get all they need to know about art by looking only at line drawings and ink woodcuts. I'm still sad about what they're missing, even if they are perfectly happy. Not just because of the power struggle, but because it feels so lonely when I have no one with whom to share my enthusiasm about Picasso and Monet and El Greco and Rembrandt. Not to mention how much it cost me to get into the damn museum in the first place.

(Oh: and I should have said on the last entry: thank you so much, but I'm not looking for advice. These food entries seem to attract more advice than any other type of entry I write. Unless they're the entries about housekeeping. But I'm simply thinking out loud.)

(And now I'm off to go eat leftover taco pie and winter squash for lunch.)

Comments

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

It's as if I'm taking the kids through an art museum, and they refuse to look at any painting that has any but three specific colors in it: black, beige and white.

Well, yes. I'm basically on your side about the food.

The thing is, the kind of conflicts you're having with your girls over food are *not* contributing to widening their tastes, it doesn't look like to me.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

What David Said. On both counts.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Sometimes the only way to win is not to play.

B

[sdn.livejournal.com]

no advice, as specified above, but it's interesting to read about.

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Good stuff, the things you cook. I bet I would have quailed at many of them as a child. Likewise, your children will probably grow up and develop broader tastes and look back at what you cooked for them and wonder what they could have possibly been thinking at passing those things up.

Enjoy your cooking and enjoy eating. Don't fret about your daughters, they'll come 'round.

[mizzlaurajean.livejournal.com]

I often don't comment to your posts because I know are not looking for advice.

But kids are what I do for a living so it gets so incredibly hard for me to keep my mouth shut.

Right now I'm over here in the corner shutin up cause I'm not trying to be difficult but I have sooo much to say.....(picture zipper across lips that's me yes with the silver smile)

[nwl.livejournal.com]

I never have anything to say as this has never been an issue in my family that I can recall - outside of food allergies, of which there were very few. I lived quite a bit with my grandparents and there was always a variety of food (as well as people) around at every meal. You either ate it or you didn't. I can't recall it ever being a big deal. One of my uncles seemed to subsist on mashed potatoes and canned tuna (he mixed the two). My grandmother aways made sure she had potatoes to mash and canned tuna. Actually, we always had a good time during meals. The older folks would tell family stories and the younger ones would talk about what was happening in town or at school.

Of course, my grandmother let us eat pie at breakfast or leftovers from the night before either instead of or with a bowl of cereal or bacon and eggs. She would just empty the refrigerator and pantry at meals. And she let us help her when she cooked. We generally ate fresh or canned vegetables as she had a big garden every year. Hey, it was the 50s and 60s. It always tickles me when people seem to think eating seasonally is so new. It seems odd to me to have some foodstuffs all year around. The citrus always tastes better in the winter.

Hang in there.

[naomikritzer]

Whenever you post about food issues within your family, these posts cause me to worry, both about you and about your daughters. It makes it very hard to resist the temptation to offer advice.

In particular, the latest post made me worry about whether Delia is at risk for developing an eating disorder, particularly as there is a high correlation between eating disorders and OCD/anxiety.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

To provide a sort of a counterpoint, to me, food is another irritating thing that keeps me from doing other stuff. Just like sleep, or shaving. It's not what I choose to be doing, but I have to do it. I actually was pretty interested in the news story a few months back where a guy decided to try living on Purina Ape Chow for a month; after all, it's formulated to provide 100% nutrition for great apes. If I were still a bachelor, I'd honestly probably have tried it by now, though the guy in the story said that he now understands why monkeys fling poo.

I do realize that there is a great deal of pleasure to be had in food. But there's way more pleasure to go around than I possibly have time for, and food isn't where I choose to spend my time.

I gotta admit though, I'm slowly getting persuaded to change my views by Good Eats. I've mentioned the show to people, and said how cool it was that he explains the molecular chemistry behind cooking and why things are done that way. They look at me like I've grown another head; you know, like they'd look at you if you said you enjoy math or something.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

FYI, I have pretty odd tastes I guess. I really can't stand alcohol in almost any form; it all tastes like battery acid to me unless it's been way sweetened up, and even then, I like it better if they leave the alcohol out. I used to try to force the stuff down, but I finally gave up and decided to leave it for people who actually enjoy the crud.

I also can't bear coffee. The slightest swallow of the stuff makes me ill. I'm not too fond of the smell either.

[johnridley.livejournal.com]

P.P.S. - I generally tend towards the "my body probably knows what it wants better than I do" point of view - if I'm craving something, I probably should go find some.

One of my problems is that I'm usually really short on salt due to the amount of sweating I do getting to work and back. It took me a while to figure this out. If I'm feeling really weak, I need to dump a packet of salt into my drink or lunch for a few days to try to catch up.

Thing is, I'd been trying to avoid salt, because they're always saying it's bad for you. However, I think people like salt because, historically, people sweated a lot and needed to replace it. People don't sweat much anymore.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

This is wy sometimes you need something like Gatorade to rehydrate, when water just isn't cutting it. As far as I can tell, Gatorade is close to the mix of water, sugar, and salt medically recommended for rehydration.

(I have no medical credentials at all - but I lived in Phoenix for a decade and I seem to dehydrate easily.)

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

I think nowadays most doctors say Pedialyte is much, much better. Gatorade is too salty.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but for nonclinical, not-serious situations, Gatorade is also reasonably tasty and very easy to find (supermarkets, convenience stores). It's also quite sweet, so generally if I'm using it to really try to rehydrate, I'll either dilute the liquid about half and half with water, or use the powder and use half as much as recommended.

[redbird]

Salt is one of the things that people need, but that it's easy for someone in our culture (eating prepared foods of various sorts, including canned stuff, chips, and many restaurant meals) to get too much of.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

I really admire your insight and your openness to keep sharing this stuff. One can get a clue to how strongly people feel about food/family issues by reading your comments -- your evocative descriptions push buttons for a lot of us, whether it's about our experiences as children or our experiences as parents or something else.

I feel the same way about wanting to share the stuff I like with the people I care about - whether it's venison stew with dumplings or the TV show Friday Night Lights or His Majesty's Dragon or going skating. And I like it when people I care about share their favourites with me.

[creepygirl-chow.livejournal.com]

Food's a tricky business because it means so many different things to people. Some people just think of it as fuel, some people enjoy the process of making it, some people want adventure, some people want the comfort of familiarity and predictability.

I love sharing good food with others, especially new and different stuff, and it can be frustrating when they don't want to. I struggle balancing my desire to share with being sensitive to other people's needs. Right now I'm fretting because I'm responsible for dessert and appetizers for Thanksgiving, and I've just discovered that four people that I don't know will be there. I'm going to make potstickers for the appetizers, and pumpkin cheesecake for dessert, and I'm worried that some of the four may think these are "too weird" and will miss the more traditional Thanksgiving dishes. I don't want anyone to feel unhappy or that it's "not Thanksgiving" because there's no pumpkin pie. Gah. Maybe I should buy one.

[redbird]

If there were something I felt was absolutely essential to Thanksgiving dinner, and I wasn't hosting the meal myself, I would get in touch with the host and say something like "my family always had noodle kugel for Thanksgiving. If you're not making that, can I bring some?" [My aunt did in fact always serve noodle kugel, but I've never bothered to make it myself.)

Then again, there are going to be three of us eating Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow, and a fairly short menu, because the list of essentials seems to be turkey, onions, pie, and "some green vegetable," which in this case is going to be a salad. (There will also be a sweet potato and apple casserole, and maybe chocolate mousse.)

[nmsunbear.livejournal.com]

Onions? Interesting. Any particular preparation?

[redbird]

These are little white onions. I think he's going to parboil them and then glaze them with margarine. (If you don't need to avoid dairy, you can certainly use butter.)

[redbird]

Clarification: they get boiled briefly to loosen the skins, which are then removed. The skinned onions are then boiled some more (until tender, I guess) and then go into a small frying pan to be glazed with butter (or margarine) and maple syrup.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

This is not advice; it is an anecdote.

My MIL was never very happy with us that we didn't force the kids to go places like art museums when they were young, like she forced her kids to do. Today we have two kids who like art museums and two who don't. (When he travels, B makes it a point to visit museums to see paintings he has heard about, and R has at present a fairly general interest.) I'm not sure what my MIL's results were, as I don't know how my sister-in-law feels about it, but J avoids art museums whenever possible. So the results of my MIL's forcing are at best statistically no better than the results of our not forcing.

My own hypothesis is that people will be who they will be, that they will discover what they like and what they don't even if no one forces it on them.

I suspect that the reason food entries attract so much attention is the obvious: food is fraught.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I was a picky eater as a child. I don't remember it ever being a family "issue."

B

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

You? Mr. "Please let this be cooked" (who ate it anyway?

Sometimes, really, my son B reminds me a bit of you.

[windelina.livejournal.com]

A lurker speaking up: I was a picky eater for my entire childhood, well into adulthood. Very limited in what I would willingly eat, with a lot of stress when I was confronted with foods that weren't in those limited categories.

Sometime in my 20's, I started branching out. All on my own.
I eat Thai, and curry, and Mexican, and Vietnamese, and you name it.

I knew that my limited eating options made me "weird" and I stressed about it. One of the best things my mom did for me was never push. I'm not saying that you are pushing. But do not worry about your girls "missing out" on all the good food. Eating it now would only stress them out. And chances are, they will come to it naturally on their own as long as they haven't developed any food-issues.

I (now) know how hard it was for my mom all those years, but now we enjoy many wonderful meals together.

[daharyn.livejournal.com]

Another lurker, out to say "Ditto." Now in my twenties I have branched out a lot -- part of this was simply peer pressure, and being able to go out with my friends. My mother and I went to Babani's in St. Paul for lunch today, at my suggestion, and it was a very pleasant experience for all!

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

You sound like out older son. He was an unbelievably picky eater (we called it "conservative"!) as a child and teen. Then in college he started traveling, as well as hanging out with friends of many ethnicities, and now he is a very adventurous eater.

[nmsunbear.livejournal.com]

My brother is the same way. Very picky child, but at some point I think he decided being a picky eater didn't square with who he wanted to be, so he made a conscious effort to branch out. Still not as adventurous as me, but he'll try just about anything.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

My husband reports being a picky eater as a kid.

K. [(!)]

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

I was a picky eater as a child.

B

[madrobins]

I am an omnivore surrounded by a recovering picky eater and two children who eat like children. I feel your pain. I love to cook--both as a noodly experimenter and as someone who expresses affection with the process. I often feel trapped by my family's various food dislikes (never mind the allergies; I can avoid nuts and sesame seeds pretty easily) because it means I'm always eating what they like, which is a pretty narrow palette to work with.

I put a vegetable on the table and serve everyone some. If it's broccoli or tomatoes, Spouse and younger daughter will eat it. If it's snap peas, Spouse and older daughter will eat it. Older daughter will eat shrimp; Spouse and younger daughter will eat nothing that comes from the sea. Just keeping track of who likes what is demoralizing. So I feel your pain.

There are two things I won't do: make multiple meals ("you can make yourself a peanut butter sandwich" sounds reasonable to me) or insist anyone eat anything. They can always learn to eat better (with that infuriating "God, Mom, you never served us Brussels sprouts! What's up with that?" arriere-pensee which adult children are so good at) but if I erode my relationship with them over green beans, I may not be able to recover. Of course, this may just be a cover for my own unwillingness to expend the energy in arguing about it.

The Spouse, who ate nothing but white bread, chicken, hamburger and apples growing up, now eats almost everything, and is delighted with my cookery. I take that as an omen and hope someday to see my children ordering salad...

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

I never comment on the food posts because you're not looking for advice. But people do offer advice for the same reason you try to please your kids with food -- they see you're upset and they want to help. It's their way of offering love, even if it's not a way that's necessarily appreciated, just like your offering love via food isn't often appreciated.

[dreamshark.livejournal.com]

The food entries attract attention because you seem to be made so miserable by this issue and your friends don't like to see you unhappy.

Okay, no more advice. Since you keep doing more or less the same thing (cooking inventively for your family) when you know exactly what your family's reaction is going to be, you must be getting something out of it.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Since you keep doing more or less the same thing (cooking inventively for your family) when you know exactly what your family's reaction is going to be, you must be getting something out of it.

Well, not quite. The thing is, it's kind of like trying to hit a moving target. It's not quite so predictable. I put both hamburger and black beans in the pie because Delia has accepted both and refused both in the past, and I hoped that whichever one it was this week, she'd just pick the other out. She STILL talks about an appetizer we got as a sample at a gourmet food store, over a year later, that was cream cheese with black beans and a raspberry/chipolte sauce. She loved it. So, I reason, well, she liked black beans that time in the past, maybe she'd like it again if I try cooking it this way? And so I try it. And when it's refused, I get frustrated.

I know that next week, she'll throw a snit over the hamburger in particular and ask, why not put some beans in it?

Another thing going on is that food psychologists say that you need to offer foods to kids repeatedly (without making a big deal out of it, if possible). A kid may refuse a food ten times, try it, and finally decide that they like it.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

"Another thing going on is that food psychologists say that you need to offer foods to kids repeatedly (without making a big deal out of it, if possible). A kid may refuse a food ten times, try it, and finally decide that they like it."

I've been thinking about this paragraph for over 24 hours now. While it's certainly true that psychologists have all kinds of advice and strategies on how to deal with parent-child food-related power stuggles, it seems unfair to cherry pick the one fact that bolsters your position.

B

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

I think I experience food-as-love much more when I cook than when others cook for me. When I cook, I find it really gratifying when people like it, and a bit of a failure on my part when they don't. When others cook, I do try to eat it even if I don't like it because I appreciate the work they've put in - but I don't think I really feel it as love, at least not enough to overcome any dislike for the actual food.

I wonder what your daughters' feelings are like when they're the ones cooking? If they just view it as a chore and not an expression of caring, it might be hard to envision it from your point of view.

[mkaout.livejournal.com]

My MIL is dying from ovarian cancer. She will likely die tonight or tomorrow.

She has not been able to have anything to eat for over a month.

Her last bite of food was hospital prepared pumpkin pie. Which she threw up. I remember she said that even though she normally would not start with dessert, she figured if she was going to throw up (again) that it may as well be good.

Due to her inability to eat (she has been on a feeding tube for 6 weeks), I have become painfully aware of how ritualistic preparing food can be and how healing food actually is. The thought of THanksgiving tomorrow is repulsive right now. I would like people to be thankful for their health and the health of their loved ones. And, if one is so fortunate, to be thankful for the preparation, love and pride that has gone into serving a Thanksgiving meal.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Thank you, and sympathy to you and your family. Yes, it's important to keep perspective, certainly. It's only food, and it's only love. But both are so very important.

[mkaout.livejournal.com]

SO IMPORTANT.

both

love and food

thank you for the kind words.

we are holding vigil tonight.

Is it terrible to hope she passes sooner and not later?

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

No, not at all. You're only wishing for the cessation of her pain, because you love her.

Peace to you all and blessings as you wait.

[mkaout.livejournal.com]

My mother in law passed this afternoon.

My husband, daughter and I were all present.

Today is also my mil's dad's 90th birthday.

a strange numbness has set in.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

A candle is lit for you and your family.

[coalboy.livejournal.com]

DEFINITELY NOT. (caps intentional)

[nmsunbear.livejournal.com]

That was beautifully described. Thank you for such a well thought out post.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

What you wrote here meshed for me with something someone else said to me recently about food as nurturing for myself. So I wrote about that in my own journal. Thank you.

[auriaephiala.livejournal.com]

Because I love them, and preparing food for them is a way of showing love. Which, I suppose, is why it bothers me so much when they refuse it.

Yes, that's how I feel about food and cooking, too. That's how my mother felt about it, too -- luckily, no one in my family was a picky eater. I like cooking, I like trying new foods and recipes, and it's frustrating in the extreme when something is rejected not because it's badly made but for what my mom would have called a "pre-prejudice".

I was at a birthday party for one of my nieces this Sunday, where my sister-in-law mentioned that neither of the nieces will eat either beef or pork anymore. Apparently, it's the influence of their Muslim and Hindu friends. Funny thing is: they go to a Roman Catholic high school (but which is required to take children of all religions). It does rather make your mind boggle.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Rob, comparatively is a much worse cook than me, and if it were up to him, they would eat very badly indeed

If it were up to Rob, what would they eat?

K.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

"It's as if I'm taking the kids through an art museum, and they refuse to look at any painting that has any but three specific colors in it: black, beige and white. 'But what about Picasso?' I cry. 'What about Monet, what about El Greco, what about Rembrandt? You're missing so much!' It doesn't really convince me to tell me that they'll get all they need to know about art by looking only at line drawings and ink woodcuts. I'm still sad about what they're missing, even if they are perfectly happy. Not just because of the power struggle, but because it feels so lonely when I have no one with whom to share my enthusiasm about Picasso and Monet and El Greco and Rembrandt. Not to mention how much it cost me to get into the damn museum in the first place."

I guess the real question is: if you strap them to a chair, put their heads in vices so they can't turn away, and force their eyeballs open, are they more likely to appreciate fine art? And would it be less lonely at the museum?

B