bad_feminists

[pegkerr]

As a result of some of the comments on my last few entries, lilsonna has made a new community, bad_feminists ("Created for those of us who no longer can quite use the phrase 'oppressive dominant patriarchy' with a straight face but still consider themselves strong feminists.")

What shall we do with it, everybody?

Comments

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Peg, no criticism intended here, but I really hope your community isn't going to turn into anti-feminist backlash, which is (as I'm sure you know) all the rage right now. I know you're upset about the responses to your post at feminist, but I'm sure anti-feminism isn't your goal either. Some of us are still pretty darn aware of the "opressive dominant patriarchy", and I'm not so sure what's so funny about it, to be honest. But hey, I don't have to join the community, and I won't. I just didn't expect this and I hoped you might supply some clarity on the issue.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

As a queer feminist who is entirely aware of the patriarchy, I just think this is a reaction to individuals who have caused problems.

As has been said over the years (though not in this way), there's room in feminism for many people, and many ways of arguing. If someone doesn't feel welcome in one portion of the movement, they can create and/or find a space where they /do/ feel welcome.

I see nothing wrong with that.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Ivy:

No, I certainly don't want to be part of something which is anti-feminist, because I consider myself feminist to the core. What I hope this community might be is a place for people feel safe to speak up about feminist issues, or even to float doubts about things because they'd like to explore some ambiguities they are struggling with--without getting beaten up for it.

Perhaps you are put off by the name that lilisonna chose, but that arose out of a joke in the comments in my entry. What I hope the name represents is that this new community will have a sense of humor, and that it might be a place that you could safely express opinions that sometimes feminists (even perhaps if it's just a the popular caricture of feminists) might think of as "bad," but it would be a safe place to explore them.

I'm not sure whether other people will agree with me, but I imagine we will be making it up as we go along.

What I want it to be is a supportive place, which is what I so badly missed when I posted on feminist, but I want to concentrate on the positive, moving forward, rather than detouring into feminism-bashing. I want a community that is supportive, and not strident or hyper-critical. I want a community that accepts struggles and doubt, and the willingness to admit that not all answers are clear.

Hope this explanation helps.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

That is certainly my hope for the community. I'm not particularly into bashing anything, but I am into seeing humor in situations (both good and bad).

Most importantly, I want a community where it's okay to not have all the answers, to not know the right responses, or to struggle with the 'right' answers as not being right for you.

We'll see how it turns out. Suggestions on ways to improve the process are more than welcome.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I appreciate what you're saying, but I just want to point out that even so far there has been a significant amount of feminism-bashing in the discussion around the creation of this group: the idea that feminism = male-bashing, that feminists are shrill and humourless, don't shave their legs, don't enjoy sex with men, etc. etc. has appeared over and over. The very idea that "good" feminism means the opposite of these things, and that this group is for "bad" feminists (whatever that means, since so far various people have commented/posted saying they don't consider themselves feminists at all), troubles me, to be honest. I realize the name could be taken as a bit of a joke, but the description and posts belie that interpretation, honestly. Apparently a bad feminist thinks the idea of oppessive patriarchy is funny? And since when do feminists not shave their legs? Since when do feminists not wear makeup or enjoy sex with men? Those posts are speaking more to stereotypes of lesbians, not feminists. So bad feminists are heterosexual women who deny the presence of oppressive patriarchy? Well, okay. I'm trying to keep with the good humour here, but that group is raising all kinds of red flags for me.

But hey, it's a free world, do as you will, I hope you have a good time. I just never saw you in this particular light before, and I wasn't sure where you were going with it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the idea is that people who consider themselves "good" feminists have told the rest of us that we're not because we shave our legs / don't hate men / laugh at excessive rhetoric when we think it's funny / whatever today's sin is.

So this community says, "Fine, I'm not a *good* feminist. Now can I have real discussions about feminism and associated issues without you jumping all over me?" Seems like a worthy cause to me.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Thank you; that puts it quite well.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I have been thinking about how to reply to you all evening.

I recognize in myself (as I drafted and re-drafted replies to you in my mind) the need to justify and explain myself to you. And then I realized that I'm tired of justifying myself to anyone and everyone about my decisions about how I make way in the world as a free and independent woman while trying to raise a family. Particularly to those who I expect to be my allies. And when I shared my unpleasant experience with the feminist community, the comments in reply made it clear to me that I'm not the only one.

I still consider myself a feminist to the core. I realized that some of the comments I got on feminist were actually sympathetic and supportive. I don't wish or intend to do anything to give comfort to the enemies of feminism. But for the rest--lord, I'm so tired of trying to explain myself, so I'll stop now. We'll see how this community works.

[pameladean]

I do get that you are tired of having to justify yourself.

I don't think a community called Parenting or Clutter or Workshare would have required any less self-justification, because, in my experience, any time at all that one puts up a necessarily-edited version of a situation, people will fill in the blanks using their own particular blinders, and you will get comments that seem to you, in your particular situation, ignorant, judgemental, and less than useful. And somebody might even, out of a similar situation, have started a community called Bad Parents or something, I don't know, but I don't think the rhetoric around it -- not specifically yours, I'm not really talking about anything you've said -- would have been of the same sort.

That is, I don't think your experience has to do with feminism, I think it has to do with the nature of an open community where people come for advice to strangers or near-strangers.

But the mix will be different, and maybe whatever clueless and ignorant remarks you get in the new place won't poke your bruises in the same way. That would be a win.

P.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Thanks, and just one quick comment:

There actually is a community called badparents and I have been a member for a good part of a year.