bad_feminists

[pegkerr]

As a result of some of the comments on my last few entries, lilsonna has made a new community, bad_feminists ("Created for those of us who no longer can quite use the phrase 'oppressive dominant patriarchy' with a straight face but still consider themselves strong feminists.")

What shall we do with it, everybody?

Comments

[cornfields.livejournal.com]

I don't know... I sense wank on the horizon. ;)

[cmpriest.livejournal.com]

What shall we do with it, everybody?
We shall join it!

Too Cool!

[amandageist.livejournal.com]

We shall join it too! Too bad I'm too busy growing my career and planning for my husband's retirement and hopefully house-Dad status to be a good feminist...

:D

[cynthia1960.livejournal.com]

As Saint Molly of Austin (Ivins, my political heroine) says, you gotta have fun while fightin' for freedom!

[erzebet.livejournal.com]

We shall join it, too, for we are bad bad bad.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_lindsay_/]

funny, i will join being Catholic and feminist makes me a bad feminist to some circles.

reflecting on the response they gave...I just think people with NO perspective on your family can even think about having an opinion. We on LJ only know what you tell us but the scenario you painted seemed right in line with what we know about your family. You're a great equal opportunity mom. If you had a son he probably would have cried right along with delia and fiona. :)

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Peg, no criticism intended here, but I really hope your community isn't going to turn into anti-feminist backlash, which is (as I'm sure you know) all the rage right now. I know you're upset about the responses to your post at feminist, but I'm sure anti-feminism isn't your goal either. Some of us are still pretty darn aware of the "opressive dominant patriarchy", and I'm not so sure what's so funny about it, to be honest. But hey, I don't have to join the community, and I won't. I just didn't expect this and I hoped you might supply some clarity on the issue.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

As a queer feminist who is entirely aware of the patriarchy, I just think this is a reaction to individuals who have caused problems.

As has been said over the years (though not in this way), there's room in feminism for many people, and many ways of arguing. If someone doesn't feel welcome in one portion of the movement, they can create and/or find a space where they /do/ feel welcome.

I see nothing wrong with that.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Ivy:

No, I certainly don't want to be part of something which is anti-feminist, because I consider myself feminist to the core. What I hope this community might be is a place for people feel safe to speak up about feminist issues, or even to float doubts about things because they'd like to explore some ambiguities they are struggling with--without getting beaten up for it.

Perhaps you are put off by the name that lilisonna chose, but that arose out of a joke in the comments in my entry. What I hope the name represents is that this new community will have a sense of humor, and that it might be a place that you could safely express opinions that sometimes feminists (even perhaps if it's just a the popular caricture of feminists) might think of as "bad," but it would be a safe place to explore them.

I'm not sure whether other people will agree with me, but I imagine we will be making it up as we go along.

What I want it to be is a supportive place, which is what I so badly missed when I posted on feminist, but I want to concentrate on the positive, moving forward, rather than detouring into feminism-bashing. I want a community that is supportive, and not strident or hyper-critical. I want a community that accepts struggles and doubt, and the willingness to admit that not all answers are clear.

Hope this explanation helps.

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

That is certainly my hope for the community. I'm not particularly into bashing anything, but I am into seeing humor in situations (both good and bad).

Most importantly, I want a community where it's okay to not have all the answers, to not know the right responses, or to struggle with the 'right' answers as not being right for you.

We'll see how it turns out. Suggestions on ways to improve the process are more than welcome.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I appreciate what you're saying, but I just want to point out that even so far there has been a significant amount of feminism-bashing in the discussion around the creation of this group: the idea that feminism = male-bashing, that feminists are shrill and humourless, don't shave their legs, don't enjoy sex with men, etc. etc. has appeared over and over. The very idea that "good" feminism means the opposite of these things, and that this group is for "bad" feminists (whatever that means, since so far various people have commented/posted saying they don't consider themselves feminists at all), troubles me, to be honest. I realize the name could be taken as a bit of a joke, but the description and posts belie that interpretation, honestly. Apparently a bad feminist thinks the idea of oppessive patriarchy is funny? And since when do feminists not shave their legs? Since when do feminists not wear makeup or enjoy sex with men? Those posts are speaking more to stereotypes of lesbians, not feminists. So bad feminists are heterosexual women who deny the presence of oppressive patriarchy? Well, okay. I'm trying to keep with the good humour here, but that group is raising all kinds of red flags for me.

But hey, it's a free world, do as you will, I hope you have a good time. I just never saw you in this particular light before, and I wasn't sure where you were going with it.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the idea is that people who consider themselves "good" feminists have told the rest of us that we're not because we shave our legs / don't hate men / laugh at excessive rhetoric when we think it's funny / whatever today's sin is.

So this community says, "Fine, I'm not a *good* feminist. Now can I have real discussions about feminism and associated issues without you jumping all over me?" Seems like a worthy cause to me.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Thank you; that puts it quite well.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I have been thinking about how to reply to you all evening.

I recognize in myself (as I drafted and re-drafted replies to you in my mind) the need to justify and explain myself to you. And then I realized that I'm tired of justifying myself to anyone and everyone about my decisions about how I make way in the world as a free and independent woman while trying to raise a family. Particularly to those who I expect to be my allies. And when I shared my unpleasant experience with the feminist community, the comments in reply made it clear to me that I'm not the only one.

I still consider myself a feminist to the core. I realized that some of the comments I got on feminist were actually sympathetic and supportive. I don't wish or intend to do anything to give comfort to the enemies of feminism. But for the rest--lord, I'm so tired of trying to explain myself, so I'll stop now. We'll see how this community works.

[pameladean]

I do get that you are tired of having to justify yourself.

I don't think a community called Parenting or Clutter or Workshare would have required any less self-justification, because, in my experience, any time at all that one puts up a necessarily-edited version of a situation, people will fill in the blanks using their own particular blinders, and you will get comments that seem to you, in your particular situation, ignorant, judgemental, and less than useful. And somebody might even, out of a similar situation, have started a community called Bad Parents or something, I don't know, but I don't think the rhetoric around it -- not specifically yours, I'm not really talking about anything you've said -- would have been of the same sort.

That is, I don't think your experience has to do with feminism, I think it has to do with the nature of an open community where people come for advice to strangers or near-strangers.

But the mix will be different, and maybe whatever clueless and ignorant remarks you get in the new place won't poke your bruises in the same way. That would be a win.

P.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Thanks, and just one quick comment:

There actually is a community called badparents and I have been a member for a good part of a year.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Non-judgmental dialogue about personal stories? Questions ('is this sexist? I can't tell')? Seeking advice ('so exactly how do I deal with my fifty year old professor who tends to call on men in the classroom regardless of female hands without completely tanking my relationship with her?')?

Moderate feminism, yay!

[lilisonna.livejournal.com]

That would be an excellent use of the space. Fabulous suggestions, every one.

[lindelea1.livejournal.com]

Sheesh. I'd say "still consider themselves strong feminists" would rather X out the "anti-feminist" charge, wouldn't you?

OTOH I don't know exactly where I stand. Sometimes "feminisim" seems to mean "open season on women by *women*". It's hard enough to be a woman among men in the workplace without having other women stab you in the back. But I remember from my days at an "outside job" that the women had the capacity to be nastier than the men. Much nastier. Why is that?

I haven't called myself a "feminist" for a long time now. That doesn't make me "anti-feminist" necessarily. I'm just "anti" the people who don't believe that a woman should follow her calling, if it happens to be at home, raising her own children. The ones who say I wasted my college degree and managerial experience when I decided to leave the workplace.

I'm all for equal opportunity.

I don't think "male bashing" is particularly profitable. "Feminism" as used in society today seems to have become associated with shrill and angry rhetoric and very little listening and thinking about the viewpoints of others who may see things differently.

(OTOH there are an awful lot of women out there working away quietly at making the world a better place. They call themselves feminists, but they say it quietly because the word has been tarnished. Do I need to say how?)

Are many of those grating voices still around? I've been too happy in the place I've chosen, to pay much heed, the past few years.

It has been much too much fun to participate in such an abundance of "life" and watch little ones grow in knowledge and grace and (potential) independence, to celebrate their strengths and guide their perception of what they might do with their lives. (And what is that, you ask? Anything they want, that their gifts lead them to do, I'd say... and hopefully in service to greater good and not selfishness.)

[lenora-rose.livejournal.com]

Tell jokes? One of the biggest issues people have with some branches of feminism is how little sense of humour it has about itself, and about the world.

[silme.livejournal.com]

I think I might join it! :)

[pameladean]

I dunno, I find my main reaction is to say, "Don't take names to yourself, Smeagol," but I hope that the community is what you want it to be.

P.

[callunav.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I find my main reaction is to say, "Don't take names to yourself, Smeagol," but I hope that the community is what you want it to be.

Thank you!

That expresses what was on the edge of my mind but not grabbing words for itself. Both counts.



I think that when I was surrounded almost exclusively by strong feminists, this idea would have tickled me without giving rise to any reservations. But now I spend a lot of time with women who would not want to call themselves feminists and are, in many ways, different from what I would call feminist, and I feel a little bleaker about the whole thing.

Laughter and the willingness to create something, with humor and energy, to meet an unmet need of your own and the community's - that's pretty cool, though.

[pameladean]

Yeah, that's kind of where I am too. There really doesn't seem to be a superabundance of feminism; the ease with which the same dopey stereotypes arise at the slightest provocation alarms me; and I don't see the provocation in the same light as I otherwise might, even.

And yes, indeed, making something new because nothing existing fills your requirements, is a fine thing.

I don't join LJ communities, though. One must draw the line somewhere, or one would get nothing done at all.

P.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

What I said here.

[gamps-garret.livejournal.com]

*ponders*

I spent a few very short years -- the latter college years and the time immediately following them, until my Dad got sick -- being a fiercly community-protective dyke. I was political, I was ranty, I shaved my head as a statement, I dressed and spoke and walked "the part." I don't know that I ever said "oppressive dominant patriarchy," but I probably said things that were equally as smile-inducing now. (aeditimi can probably fill in the gaps time is creating.)

I don't know that I ever identified myself as a feminist at that time. In fact, I'm positive that I didn't. When asked "so are you a feminist," by (more) conservative classmates, I said, "no, I'm a lesbian." There was an ideological difference in my head that I don't know that I really gave voice to, at the time.

And now, looking back, all I can do is smile and shake my head over my overly simplistic opinions, and be thankful that I can differentiate so many shades of grey. I don't know that I'll join or lurk about bad_faminists, but I might. Never can tell, after all.

[guipago.livejournal.com]

Play, of course. What else would we do with it?

Brilliant idea of course. Brilliant. ;)