Karate again: when will this be settled???

[pegkerr]

As I was driving the girls to Fiona's karate lesson, I told Delia that I was going to ask sensei for the paperwork for her karate contract. "But remember," I told her, "we won't sign it until you give me, in writing, a statement that you are committing to taking karate."

She stared at me, and tears started rolling down her face. "I don't know. I'm not sure now if I want to take karate after all."

I can barely believe that I refrained from screaming at her out of sheer frustration. We dropped Fiona off for her lesson, and I talked with Delia some more. She wants to continue. No, she doesn't. She does. She doesn't. She can't make up her mind. In desperation, I asked her whether she wanted to talk to someone else about this, to sensei, or maybe minnehaha K, or kiramartin. Anyone else. No, she didn't. I showed her how to make up a sheet that said, "Pro" or "Con" and invited her to think of factors to put in each column. She didn't want to think about it; she just desperately wanted out of the conversation.

Finally, I took her into a coffee shop and gave her a cup of hot chocolate to calm her down. Then we went to pick up Fiona. Sensei asked to speak with me. "I have a proposal for you," he said. I had shown him some of the entries I had done about karate on my LiveJournal, and he had an idea. "If you will maintain the school website for me--I haven't been able to take care of it for months--I'll give you a reduction on your tuition fees." He named the figure he had in mind, and my jaw dropped. The offer was really very generous.

"Yeah, but I have a problem." I gave a little nod toward Delia. "She's wavering again."

"You're kidding. Well, she shouldn't continue if she isn't sure." He brightened. "But then you could continue."

I took a deep breath, suddenly dizzy with hope. I had ruthlessly tried to extinguish all desire to continue, out of the belief that it was impossible. But suddenly, that latent wish reared up, and I was astonished that it was as strong as ever. I could. I could start taking karate again. I really could! And then I looked at Delia. "But . . . only if she rules it out for herself." When she is incapable of making up her mind.

I have to give her a deadline. I have to make it absolutely clear that if she says no, she can't change her mind. Because if she turns it down, then I have to think about it for myself, and if I accept it, there won't be enough money then for her to continue.

Great. That's all that Delia needs. More pressure.

If she would just make up her bloody mind.

Comments

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Oh, for pete's sake. Let us talk about this tomorrow.

K.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Wow. Poor kid.

B

[jbru.livejournal.com]

I stumbled upon an interesting way of looking for solutions to problems today. Perhaps it would be of use to Delia and/or you: http://www.innovationtools.com/Articles/ArticleDetails.asp?a=160

It might not help, but looking at the problem another way can't hurt.

[fireflowerlass.livejournal.com]

Wow, that is beyond annoying as far as your daughter, but that is SOOOO exciting about you getting to do karate! So cool!

[callunav.livejournal.com]

I know you're not asking for advice, so disregard this, if you just needed to vent. I was just thinking that one possibility would be for you to tell her that, since she was unsure about it, you were going to make the decision for her that she /wouldn't/ do it for the next six months (or however long makes sense for you, though not too long because time is stretched out for young people), and that in that time, she doesn't have to think about whether she wants to do it right away, because that isn't an option. What she has to think about is whether she wants to do it when the six months are up. You can circle the day on the calender, and tell her that, when the day comes, if she's still unsure, that's *fine* - then she won't go for the next six months, and she'll have the opportunity to decide again. No irrevocable deadlines to create all-or-nothing stress, no daily torturous indecision, but not going until she can say clearly that she wants to, and give you that statement in writing.

I think there might be a good chance that your taking the decision away from her might be a big relief. She's not sure...and that's the whole point: she's not sure. Someday, I think she'll probably be sure. And that will be the day to go and sign her up.

And at least until then, you can study. Because you're sure.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

That's a really good idea! I used to be a lot like Delia when I was a kid, and it would have beeen *such* a relief to me, if anybody had suggested something like this.

However, I seem to recall her having to make up her mind now or the special price would no longer be available for her? If that's the case, this might be out of the question. Bah! How frustrating for you.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a good idea to me. It won't kill her to take some time off, and taking a long break might help her figure out whether she missed it and wants to go back or was just as happy not doing it.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Let me join the chorus: good idea.

This sounds very familiar (as I've said before). There are some people--and I think this is more pronounced in kids, who don't have as much life experience--for whom making decisions is next to impossible because they are terrified of making the wrong one. They are immobilized by their fear of being wrong. There can be various causes, but one is multiple anxiety disorder.

[qwyneth.livejournal.com]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon too, not that it matters. She's not sure. Since she's not sure, don't sign her up. If she has to sit in the practices she has to sit in the practices; she can read or do her homework while she does that. And if she has to wait for another year or so until a spot opens up in her skill level, so be it. When it comes time for her to reevaluate her decision, she'll know for sure. She just doesn't know if she wants it. Don't make her do it anyway...and do it yourself instead! :)

[moony]

I'm sticking my neck out here and suggesting that maybe Delia waffles on decisions because she is given too much leeway? Perhaps it is time to "be the bad guy" and make the decision for her. If you tell her, "Well, I had hoped you would be able to decide this for yourself, but sometimes decisions need to be made and stuck to, especially when they affect other people, and so I am going to have to decide this for you." Then you should take karate yourself, and do NOT feel guilty about it. And stick to this - when she waffles on things (like what to have for dinner, what to wear, etc.), make the decision for her. And be a little cruel - decide things she likely wouldn't have chosen. If she realises that having Mom (or Dad) decide things for her, while easier, actually sucks, you will likely see her start making her decisions a lot quicker.

Anyway, that's what my parents did for me. I think it took about two weeks before I learned how to make up my mind about things. They took the right away from me and I learnt that I missed it.

"Until I feared I would lose it, I did not love to read. One does not love breathing." - Scout Finch.

*goes back to lurking*

[brenk.livejournal.com]

I agree. Also, if you make the decision and then get 'but really, I wanted to do the opposite', then your reply is that she should have said so when she had the chance.

I'm a great believer in giving kids SOME choices (and tried to give mine plenty), but she was STILL A KID and thus some choices were simply too hard, too overwhelming, too confusing. The hardest part is deciding when they're old enough to take decision X, I think.

I also think that however positive it is to offer some choices, offering too many gives more the impression that you don't care than the impression that you're being laid back. I may be old-fashioned (I'm 50) but much as I think kids need flexibility and understanding, they also need a few limits. The best way I've ever heard it put is that kids need solid, strong walls to grow up in, but those walls need to be of rubber - as in they give a little when necessary.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Yes, and this is a really heavy choice, because of the financial aspect and all the stuff in the past with Fiona. There's no wonder she's conflicted.

She's not losing anything if she loses a year of karate at her age, especially if she keeps on with the ballet.

[priscellie.livejournal.com]

I think that's a really good solution. It'll help you and Delia get to the real root of the problem: Delia's inability to make up her mind. The karate issue is really just a symptom of the greater problem.

*listens to the "The Saga of Jenny"*

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Think about these two sentences that you wrote:

"When she is incapable of making up her mind."

"If she would just make up her bloody mind."

You may be asking her to do something she is literally incapable of. But you're telling her to do it, and parents know all, so, in her mind, there must be something terribly wrong with her, that she can't--can't--do this thing that her parent thinks it's reasonable to require of her. No wonder she's in such a state.

[joelrosenberg.livejournal.com]

Since I don't think that kids that age tend to really understand that failure to decide is a decision, my own take with my kids is generally to set a default decision for them if they waffle enough.

It doesn't work all that well, or all that badly, although my guess is that it works about as well as anything else. (In the real world, failure to make decisions in certain kinds of situations is not merely a delay, but puts one down a specific path.) In my own experience, whether or not I worry a lot about it doesn't make any difference; a snap default decision ("Either decide yes or no right now, or I'll decide for you right now.") seems to work as well or better than long drawnout negotiation and angst (Judy seems to absolutely love long, drawnout negotiations/discussions and the generation of angst; by and large, setting clear parameters that don't include long drawnout discussions and then standing by them works for her and me.)

In Rachel's case, it's she goes to fencing. She doesn't get to give it up just because she feels like staying home on a given fencing night.

[(Anonymous)]

As an adult I don't like it when people put deadlines on me... and Delia is just a sweet kid. Maybe backing off and letting her have some free time would work the best.

The huge time committment it takes to succeed is a lot of ask of a kid, IMHO.

Kids are asked to do so much these days...whatever happened to lazing around with a good book?

Cheers,
c.

[snippy]

Here is a different way of looking at this problem. Please feel free to reject it, if it doesn't fit your needs, your personality, or your parenting style. I realize I don't know you very well, and so my assumptions may be completely wrong, but this is what I wish someone had told me more than once when my boys were younger.

Be her parent: take care of her. Take responsibility for this decision, take on the guilt of it so she doesn't have to. Take on the possibility that some days she'll hate you for making the decision, no matter which way it goes; take on the consequences of doing the right thing for your family, instead of making this child try to figure out whether she's being selfish or is committed and disciplined enough to make taking the opportunity worth it for the whole family. You are the adult here, act like it.

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

On a related note, my 9yo's been taking karate, and for the past 6 months or so my 4yo has said she wants to take karate also when she's 5. I said that's great -- we can all take it together. So her bdays in a few months, I told her how about we start now? And she's changed her mind -- doesn't want to do it. I'm very disappointed -- I was looking forward to taking karate for me. Oh well. Have to figure out if I can wait, or find a time when hubby can watch 4yo.

Back to you: not that I get a vote, but I vote that you take the karate class because:
1) You're the one earning the discount by maintaining the website.
2) You really want to.
3) It will be good for Delia to experience missing an opportunity by inaction (in this case not making up her mind) while the stakes are low.
4) If you don't do it and Delia does, but then backs out again, you'll resent it.

Btw, saw another mention somewhere about how the best decisions are those made from an emotional basis (i.e. the gut) rather than purely from an intellectual level. Do what feels right.

while the stakes are low

[fairmer.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a really good way of saying this...

[wilfulcait.livejournal.com]

Limited goods should go to those who really want them. You really want this; Delia doesn't really want it. You should have it.

You're not doing her out of anything. People take up martial arts at the advanced ages of 16, 20, 30, 40 and still find skill and joy in them. She's not missing her chance to ever do this.

[kokopoko.livejournal.com]

My 11 year old daughter is messing with me too over lessons. She loves horses, has loved horse riding lessons and yet last week at lesson time she suddenly says she doesn't want to do them at all anymore! UGH And she's tired of dance too. I think she'll get out of this in a few days, but was it frustrating. Even if she doesn't show for lessons we still have to pay.

[serenya-loreden.livejournal.com]

I'm going to echo others. From a totally outsider perspective, it sounds like Deliah doesn't really *WANT* to do it. She thinks it might be fun/good, but then again it might not be. It's too big of a committment for maybe. I think it sounds like one of those times where you have to give her a deadline and then make the decision for her, and you *WANT* to do this.

[naomikritzer]

Chiming in to agree with the chorus here suggesting that you just make the decision for her that she's not going to take karate for now, or that she's not going to do it for six months, or whatever is practical. (Maybe revisit this decision in late summer for next fall?) I would try to back up from the guilt trip suggested by a few posters, though. The last thing she needs is encouragement to further beat herself up at a point when it no longer matters.

I suspect that some of what's playing into her difficulty making the decision is guilt about the finances, the aggravating transportation, the fact that you had to quit. I bet that she knows you DON'T want her to make her decision based on that and as a result, she is second-guessing herself if she actually does want to quit. It might help clarify her process if some specific sacrifice were required of her, as well, to mirror the sacrifices made by you and Rob to make it possible for her. (Ideally, it should be something that would make your own load lighter in some way.) She could then weigh karate against her own potential burden rather than yours.

There are sports where it is critical to start working, hard, as a kid, if you want to perform at a certain level later on. This is not, from what I can tell, even remotely true of martial arts. I know numerous people who took up martial arts in college and now hold multiple black belts. If karate is enjoyable to a kid, then great, it's a great thing for them to do in their spare time. If it's not enjoyable, then there's really absolutely no harm in dropping it and returning to it later -- years later, even. If she quits now and doesn't go back until she's 18 and in college, she may find herself starting over as a white belt in a different martial art. But this is not nearly as big a deal as it probably would seem to her if it were pointed out to her now. My friend wolfgangemilio had a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. He decided he was more interested in Aikido, started over, and had a black belt in Aikido a few years later. Then he moved, and had no Aikido school handy, so found a school teaching Shotokan Karate, and signed up for that in part because he liked the idea of being a brand new student again. The first time he tested, he advanced four ranks, or something borderline absurd like that. This friend did take Tae Kwon Do in high school, I think, but he didn't start Aikido until his junior year of college.

Personally, I think the optimal activity for Delia would be Circus School. But that's hellishly expensive, and I haven't looked in to what financial aid is available.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

Is it possible that there's actually some good news and progress in this part of the story? Even though Delia knew that it would upset you, she still said "I don't know" instead of glossing over it and letting you & sensei carry on getting the paperwork etc. I remember the story about her forgetting her uniform, knowing she'd forgotten it, and telling you that she had it because she didn't want hassle. It takes guts to admit that you've changed your mind, and maybe that's a first step to knowing yourself well enough to know what kind of commitments to make.

Also, I wonder whether there are any choices between "no karate" and "black belt contract", such as just signing up for a month, or just signing up for a week-long summer program, or something. It must be hard to decide whether to commit long-term when she hasn't been doing it for a while and getting out of the loop (and when her sister has spent that whole time getting better at it).

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Even though Delia knew that it would upset you, she still said "I don't know...

Yes, that's true, and when talking to her, I took particular pains to point that out and praise her for it. I told her that part of growing up is learning how to listen to that little voice inside of oneself that tells you what you really want, rather than just going along the path of least resistance.

The problem for her, and I just honestly don't know how to help her, is that she honestly doesn't know what she wants. But at least she is acknowledging that. And that is definitely a step forward for her.

[dreamflower]

As an adult, I still have problems making a decision when other people push me. It is simply something in certain people's make-up. If I am left alone to think it over in my head, I can come to a conclusion eventually *BUT* if I have not come to it yet, someone else bringing it up puts me *right back at square one*. Seems to me that may be part of Delia's problem.

I say, go with taking the lessons yourself. Enjoy them. She can go along and watch and amuse herself by reading or drawing or doing her homework, and maybe she can occasionally indulge in a bit of self-pity that she's not doing it. If she does bring it up, and tell you she wishes that she had taken the lessons, just shrug and tell her that she wasn't ready when the opportunity was there, and so she will have to wait for another opportunity.

And, really, there's nothing saying kids have to be doing all these extracurricular activities--they are great for some kids, but not necessarily for all.

[shalanna.livejournal.com]

I think hobbitbabe is on to something here. It takes courage to say that you don't like something that much when the others in the family seem to be so crazy about it, and Delia is too young to rebel the way one does at sixteen or seventeen ("I hate you! I wouldn't wear what YOU wear no matter if I had to go in rags!" Etc.) I suspect she really isn't that crazy about karate and/or the long-term commitment, yet she has seen the hassles that you go through to take her sister there, and she knows how badly YOU want to take. She can't bring herself to be the one who makes this momentous decision that you spend money, etc., when she knows that if, later, she just can't go on sparring with people and so forth, it'll mean that you lose money you committed to pay. And she knows she's taking it away from you.

Better to say just, "All right, if you want to take later, in six months, we'll see about getting you in. I'm going to take instead!"

I mean . . . I've often let people carry on and get all excited about whatever it was that they wanted me to do (do a 10K run for charity donations, be on some kind of sports team, etc.), and I didn't want to disappoint them, and it seemed SO important to them, and it was so tough to try to say no because they simply were not listening to "no" in a nice way, and in the end it was something that I was simply not capable of doing. It was much worse when I had to turn around to them when they had everyone convinced that I was halfway there and say, "Look, I can't go on any cruise. We can't afford it, and besides, even if we could, I wouldn't want to go--I'm not that crazy about going off without my husband with three women who love to gamble on a casino boat for two weeks. I don't mean that I don't want to continue being friends--but I hate gambling because I hate to lose, I would probably get seasick, and I know I'd be claustrophobic in those tiny cabins. I would constantly fret about whether Mother was getting her medicine--which I take care of here at home--and about my dog being walked and fed (hubby never thinks of these things, and wouldn't automatically remember!) I'd rather take that same money and time, if I had it, and go to Carmel!" I mean, I had a sudden outburst of Truth. Everyone in the office hated me for a while after this, because they had been counting on my presence to "share a deal" and so forth and pay less themselves somehow (I don't know how these group deals work). Still, I had been just nodding and going "uh-huh" to be nice and get along while they raved about the glories of cruises and so forth, and when they got the bright idea to take one together, I didn't want to say, "Why not go on one with your husbands?" or whatever I was thinking. I know, I know, they had fun, but I would NOT have. They found another sucker in another department, anyway. I still don't think they really wanted ME, just a fourth person to make the "group rate," so it was a different situation from what you have--but I think there's a parallel. Wanting to get along, go along, keep the peace because it's not that important that you start a fuss by disagreeing--choosing your battles. Sometimes, though, you have to just speak out and say, "That is not really for me, but I am glad you enjoy it." This takes time. I am still working on this.

I think a week-long summer program would be a lot better than committing to a long-term contract, anyway. Again, it's true that her sister has spent all this time getting better at it, and perhaps she feels she'll always be a dabbler. It's no sin to dabble in many things to see what they're like. Perhaps a week would be enough to refresh those skills over the summer? As always, just musing "out loud."

[whapnoggin.livejournal.com]

This could be a good thing for Delia--she'll see that opportunities don't stay open forever, that the space will go to the person who says, "Yes." Also, I don't think there's any kind of Mom-clause that says you have to give up a challenging, fulfilling, fun activity for someone who isn't sure. If she says yes now and does change her mind again, you'll be beyond frustrated. Can't you re-evaluate in a couple of years? It's not as though taking karate will be impossible when she's a little older and a little more sure.

[whapnoggin.livejournal.com]

I wanted to add something else, about the money. I read the situation like this: Delia is sensitive, but too young to be fully accountable for her self-control. However, she's smart enough to be aware of her mistakes, and to feel guilty for them. Thus--since you've impressed upon her that this is a significant decision--she's become terribly afraid that she might lose your esteem if she fails down the road. It can be tremendously hard for children in this position to make firm decisions, because if she puts her foot down and pushes for her own way in this, and changes her mind later, she'll look like a bad child (to herself, if not necessarily to you). For a sensitive kid, the distance between decisiveness and wilfulness (disobedience) is often very, very hard to read, and that may play into her difficulty in making the decision--because she's not quite sure if she's ready to bear the full responsibility. The fact that you yourself are so deliberate and decisive may make the decision even more difficult.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

This is certainly true. I have tried my very best to emphasize to her, whenever we talk about this, that whatever she decides, we will be very proud of her either way. She has stuck with karate a long time and made great strides, and she has the power to get even better--and yet, on the other hand, if she stops right now, she will have already absolutely accomplished every thing we set out for her; she had lived up to all of her commitments. I am trying to lower the bar for her, to make her feel safe and secure and loved and appreciated whatever her final choice might be. But it is very difficult because she is so sensitive. I am not sure she really believes me. She is so reserved that it is very difficult to tell.

[ame-chan.livejournal.com]

Wow, I hear your frustration and it sounds very difficult. Painful for all of you. If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion:

There is a really good book, it's called Brain Lock. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060987111/sr=8-1/qid=1143742055/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6840711-2439000?%5Fencoding=UTF8 and I have found it invaluable in dealing with OCD, anxiety and some of the issues you've described. They really focus on practical tools to help reassess and revalue and get OUT of a loop like you describe here. Easy enough that you could implement some of the stuff into discussions with hte kids and teach them to do it for themselves. It is quite possibly the best $10 you'll ever spend.

[cynthia1960.livejournal.com]

It does sound like you want karate more than Fiona does at this point in time. If you have the time to maintain the website, I'd take Sensei's offer up for yourself.

This break may help Fiona decide what she wants, and you get to pursue something you love.

[castiron.livejournal.com]

I agree with most of the above posters -- since Delia isn't sure whether she wants to return to karate or not, and since it's a long-term commitment if she does return, give her another six months or a year to think about it, and in the meantime, darn it, take lessons yourself.

I can definitely sympathize with Delia not knowing what she wants to do, though. Sometimes I still feel that way, and I'm 35!

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Wow, I identify a lot with Delia, but I can see how that's v frustrating for you, too. I remember when I was a kid I would dither and my Dad would tell me the same thing, make up your mind, and I would just freeze, especially if it was a decision where it seemed like someone would lose out. I think the idea above about saying "OK, if you can't make up your mind right now, I will take the lessons and you can decide in 6 mos or so whether or not you really want to," is a v good one because it takes the pressure off her, you get to do what you want to do, and if it's less open-ended the decision might be easier for her. My two drachmae, anyway. I just mainly wanted to say I really remember that kind of situation myself from when I was a kid, and sympathize, because it drove me _and_ my parents nuts.