Dinner: A failure

[pegkerr]

I ask you: why do I bother? Why?? Why???

I did not know what to make for dinner. I had gone through an entire lovely new vegetarian cookbook I bought: 100 recipes, of which 80% or so I would certainly eat. The photographs were beautiful; I practically drowned in my own drool. But I couldn't find a single one for which a) I had all the ingredients and b) did not include an ingredient (or more often, two, three or more) that someone in my family would refuse. Onions? Nope. Bell peppers? Nope. Polenta? Nope. Cooked tomatoes? Nope. Dried fruit? Nope. Kale? Are you kidding?

Rob was not going to be home tonight (working late at the store).

I suggested stir fry to Miss Delia. Delia told me that she is a vegetarian, but this doesn't mean, you know, that she would eat any cooked vegetables.

She rejected the vegetarian taco I gave her last night because it had refried beans. Apparently, she is a vegetarian who will not eat most types of beans, either. I told her that if she wanted to be a vegetarian, she had to be willing to try things. She started to cry. I said in my most reasonable tone: "Did I tell you you couldn't be a vegetarian? Did I? No, I did not. Did I not say that I was willing to try recipes for you? Yes, I did. But you have to be willing to try things."

In desperation, I pulled out my Moosewood cookbook and made an orange tahini sauce which went over whole wheat pasta (no, she will not eat rice), uncooked spinach, a slice or two of avocados (yes, we were trying to be daring although I should have known better) and the very first asparagus from our garden.

I ate mine. The girls both refused theirs and their dinners were scraped into the garbage. Then they moaned about being hungry.

(*Must . . . stop . . . Fist of Death . . . *)

Edited to add: I found this picture. It is perfect.

Comments

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

When they get hungry enough, they'll eat.

I did.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

But how much food will they waste before they do, dammit?

[teggy.livejournal.com]

Delurking to say, that sounds so amazing. I would have loved to have that for dinner.

Maybe you could ask Delia to start actively planning out her own meals? Ever Saturday or Sunday she could give you a list for the week chosen from a long list of preapproved meals that aren't hard for you to make, that way you could take that into consideration when you grocery shop?

I'm so impressed by the way that you are considerate of what your kids want to eat. I know as a child that I was simply expected to eat whatever was placed infront of me. The only time I ever was allowed to not eat a whole meal it was milk soup with prunes.

Anyway, sorry to be so verbose. I just want you to know you're doing a really good job.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

Our house had a working mom, a working dad, and a simple a rule: eat it or be hungry until breakfast. The corollary to this rule, when we got old enough to reach the counter, was: make your own damn dinner *g*

Do the girls take vitamins? If Delia is going to be a vegetarian that would be a good idea at her age. I don't remember if you already wrote that or not. If they do get a multivitamin then they can be a little less omnivorous and eat more limited choices without too much trouble.

There's a book out there called "the omnivore's dilemna" which talks about how humans basically evolved ourselves into a bad spot, because we need something like 50 nutrients to get by, and have to eat such a wide variety of foods to get it that we have ... a dilemna (see also book title).

Anyway, sorry the dinner went to waste. It sounds yummy.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

We had a similar rule. With 4 kids it was impossible to cater to everybody's taste. We were each allowed 2 things we *just wouldn't eat* - anything else and we either had to eat it anyway or make our own dinner.

Now? The only two things I absolutely, positively won't eat are bananas and anchovies :-)

I'm really sorry you're having such problems with Delia, Peg. I agree with whoever suggested she helps you make menues for what she'll eat. Also, if she's serious about wanting to be a vegitarian, she needs to learn to eat cooked vegetables, or she's SOL (excuse my French).

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Yeah, not eating tonight won't kill them.

[serenya-loreden.livejournal.com]

All good advice here. We had to eat 'no thank you' servings, about a spoonful. Mostly aimed at my brother who was resistant to trying new foods. We were not offered alternate meals -- refuse to eat dinner and you're hungry? reheat it or make yourself cereal (note the 'make yourself'). And we ate leftovers a lot, so scraping it into the trash was NOT an option in my house growing up. Food was too expensive to waste like that.

[moony]

Isn't it quite impossible and unhealthy to be a vegetarian and not eat beans? Where will she get protein? If she's not willing to eat things, she can't be a vegetarian. It's that simple. It's unhealthy and she's still growing.

I'm with the other commenter. It will suck, but they will eat when they're hungry, and if they won't eat what you offer them the first time, they will the second or third time. Or impose a rule that if they don't eat, they don't leave the table.

Or maybe you shouldn't waste so much energy on trying to feed them specially? Just make something you know they'll eat, and only feed them that. Eventually, they'll tire of having the same thing, every single day. When they complain, tell them you're tired of their attitudes toward food and you'll be more inclined to cook for them again when they're mature enough to appreciate it. Until then, they can eat the same thing, every day, all the time, day in and day out. Or they can make themselves something. The fact is that you aren't going to waste any more of your time on it. It might not work, but it might save you some time, money and sanity, while making certain that they eat.

This pickiness doesn't sound like a real aversion to any type of food, it sounds like pickiness for the sake of being picky. I don't understand all the tears, either. Being told to try things is not a reason to cry.

*hugs* You're awesome for trying, though. Not a lot of kids have mothers who put so much effort into what they eat.

[cupcake-goth.livejournal.com]

Or maybe you shouldn't waste so much energy on trying to feed them specially? Just make something you know they'll eat, and only feed them that. Eventually, they'll tire of having the same thing, every single day. When they complain, tell them you're tired of their attitudes toward food and you'll be more inclined to cook for them again when they're mature enough to appreciate it. Until then, they can eat the same thing, every day, all the time, day in and day out. Or they can make themselves something. The fact is that you aren't going to waste any more of your time on it. It might not work, but it might save you some time, money and sanity, while making certain that they eat.

Yes, this. Because you will drive yourself crazy if you keep trying to find things they are willing to eat. To me, it seems like they're being picky to show they have control over something.

Also, if I had pulled this sort of behavior on *my* parents? I would have been told that I could starve, I could live off of peanut butter sandwiches, or I could learn to be a reasonable and polite person.

[naomikritzer]

What on earth does she think you ought to be feeding her?

I am weirdly reminded of Kiera's current potty issues. She will not poop in the potty; she will not poop in her diaper; she is uncomfortable because her body is telling her that she needs to poop. So she screams bloody murder and drives us all crazy.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

What on earth does she think you ought to be feeding her?

Nothing but white flour pasta, I think.

[http://users.livejournal.com/anam_cara_/]

It sounds like Delia thinks that the label "vegetarian" = "license to be a picky eater"

There's a lot of advice here, and you need to do what is best for you- but there's nothing wrong with taking a stance and refusing the manipulation and stress (it seems almost like emotional blackmail).

I do know that my mother tried the "make it yourself" route, as did I with my son, but in both cases there was no end to the same meal over and over and over- with very limited nutritional value. So, now my son can have his own meal, but he has to tell me *how* he is meeting different features of the food pyramid. His veggie variety is very limited, and he does usually eat them raw, but they tend to be easy to keep stocked in the fridge.

Good luck!! I hope some day your daughters realize the amount of effort you've put into their meals!

[wilfulcait.livejournal.com]

A picky eater is someone who won't eat what the cook likes. Sounds like the girls need to learn to cook. Take it in rotation, so each of you cooks every third (or fourth - does Rob cook?) night. Eventually they'll either be so glad it's not their turn that they'll eat what you make, or they'll learn to fix enough on their nights that they can eat the leftovers.

[http://users.livejournal.com/anam_cara_/]

A picky eater is someone who won't eat what the cook likes

I think this beyond that, as she is *trying* to appease Delia- who seems unwilling to even sample anything new or remotely related to something else she might dislike (not liking ALL beans, or greens or cooked veggies) or even give suggestions of what she is willing to eat.

[norabombay.livejournal.com]

You didn't actually throttle anyone.

I count that as a win. At this point? Not killing them till they get through puberty is a win.

If it makes you feel better? one of the best meals I had with my mother?

Was triscuits that had been microwaved with some "pizza and pasta magic", olive oil, and some parmesian out of a pan.

Eaten standing together in the kitchen, off a shared plate over the stove.

It let us bond though...

[woodrunner.livejournal.com]

Hauling myself out of lurk-hood to respond, if only because it seems as if Delia doesn't really understand the concept of being vegetarian. Yes, even vegetarians are picky (for the love of Pete, I will not eat tofu) but a lot of vegetarians themselves don't really understand the concept of proper nutrition.

I didn't decide to turn vegetarian - a meat-disliking stomach did it for me, and I wasn't Delia's age either, but I had a lot of learning to do about vegetarianism in all its forms before I figured out that I can eat all the lettuce in the world and it's not going to be a healthy thing to do all the time.

Although you've probably done this already, is it possible for Delia to speak to others, child or otherwise, who are vegetarian? For her to ask questions, for them to show her how they eat properly, just to increase her own awareness of what she wants and what there is?

I know a kick in the head for me was - like you - realizing that I can't make a blasted recipe out of my vegetarian book because I don't have the stuff I need in the fridge (but that changed quickly) and realizing that I'm tired and have no energy. I bought a book that is admittedly aimed for adults called Becoming Vegetarian, and reading it made it sank in how to eat properly and healthy while vegetarian. Surely there must be similar books for Delia?

Incidentally, your meals sound delicious. Can I eat at your table?

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

She has been speaking to several vegetarian friends and checking books for vegetarian kids out of the library.

It seems to be slow to sink in, however.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we're having a little of that problem with Rachel, the vegetarian who does not like tofu. Luckily, she will eat cooked vegetables, loves onions, peppers and mushrooms, and is now especially fond of eggplant (as in stuffed eggplant, eggplant parmigiana, etc.). It's the meat substitution we're having issues with in terms of nutrition, not texture (eggplant and mushrooms aren't bad substitutes, texture-wise). We don't want to have seafood absolutely every night because of mercury issues. (It's usually not a problem unless you're eating seafood constantly.) But when we tried some actual soybeans the Sunday night, stir-fried with onions, butter and garlic, we discovered that soybeans do not actually absorb flavors like butter and garlic. (I couldn't get spinach on Saturday! Curses!) The only mouthfuls of beans that tasted like anything at all were the ones with bits of onion. Chris, Rachel and I were extremely underwhelmed by the soybeans; anything else cooked in butter and garlic is usually yummy (especially spinach, my fave!).

Oddly enough, Ben-the-Carnivore actually tried some couscous with his lamb chops on Easter. I finished my beans because they were basically inoffensive. (I was hoping they didn't taste like lima beans, because I really can't stand those and they resembled lima beans.) Rachel had only a few beans and mostly ate couscous.

::sigh:: Most days she takes a tuna sandwich for lunch and then also has a vegetarian hoagie after school. I'm still working on how to get enough protein and iron into her. Ben's been eating ham and cheese hoagies like they're going out of style in the last year and has shot up to 5'7", six inches taller than his sister. Which might just be because he's thirteen and a boy who was "scheduled" for a growth spurt. But I worry about her growth being stunted if she doesn't get enough of what she needs at this crucial time.

[mizzlaurajean.livejournal.com]

I'm curious what they would eat if it were up to them?

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Nothing but raman noodles and other plain white flour pasta. If they are feeling really adventuresome, they will put parmesan cheese on it.

[avengangle.livejournal.com]

I tried being a vegetarian back when I was twelve or so, and it's difficult when you're a kid. (Also when you're lactose intolerant, so you have to combine proteins carefully.)

I'm going to go with the 'serving them the same meal until they eat it' deal, because it worked with my brother. (See, I was the good kid/oldest kid, so I never did that whole picky eater thing.) He now eats things like salads, and he went through his whole chicken-nuggets-and-mac-and-cheese phase.

Good luck. The fact that you cook at all is seriously awesome.

[tiellan.livejournal.com]

Also when you're lactose intolerant, so you have to combine proteins carefully.

I've become increasingly lactose intolerant of late. I've cut dairy almost completely out of my diet, but now my stomach is giving me fits again. Your statement piques my interest -- please explain this.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

My family rules growing up were a bit of most everything that everyone else said.

Here's how it worked:

Food was served to the table. You were responsible to put stuff on your own plate. If you put food on your plate, though, you'd eat it. Even if that meant putting the plate in the fridge and eating it later. If it genuinely got mouldy, it'd be thrown out, but you'd be pretty darned hungry by the time that happened. (Restaurants and other places where food was plated for you did not have this rule -- if somene ELSE filled your plate, you ate until you weren't hungry anymore. However, if you filled your OWN plate, you'd better not put more food than you wanted to eat on it.)

You were responsible to eat ONE BITE of any new food. This meant that, if it was the first time something was served, you'd place one bite on your plate, eat it, then decide whether to put a real serving on your plate.

If it was a food that you knew you didn't like, and it was a new preparation, you still needed to take one bite. If it was exactly a recipe that you knew you didn't like, you weren't requred to taste it.

Mind you, this did mean that there was one time that my mother prepared a dish which contained both fish AND mushrooms AND cilantro, three things I can't stand to this day, and I still had to try one bite. It was dreadful.

If you didn't like anything being served, you could make yourself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. The cook wouldn't make it for you -- you'd make it yourself. You were still required to eat your sandwich with everyone else at the table.

My sister and I each had to cook dinner one day of the week; Mom cooked three, and Dad cooked two. Actually, Mom cooked two, and Wednesdays were pizza night.

What did this all teach me? Well, I can cook, and I always try a new food. I don't like every new food I try, but I'm always willing to give it a shot.

Also, and far more importantly, it kept my parents from going insane.

I'd...

[lsanderson.livejournal.com]

Make sure they have multi-vitamins and then let them stew. You are being too kind.

Re: I'd...

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Hunger has a way of dealing with fussiness issues.

B

[tiellan.livejournal.com]

Hee. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a vegetarian. Desperately. One big problem. I didn't like vegetables. At all. One cannot become a vegetarian on only corn, potatoes, and green beans. I realized this, and gave up my desire to be vegetarian.

On a more serious note, what about having the girls be responsible for making their own vegetarian dinners. It will not only ease the burden from you, but it may help them realize that either (a) people who don't like vegetables shouldn't be vegetarians or (b) they need to be willing to try more vegetables. Maybe even have them prepare their own meals for the better part of a week.

[kchew.livejournal.com]

Heh. I am reminded, by many commenters, of a book from my childhood called Bread and Jam for Frances, in which Frances the Badger eats bread and jam (her favourite food) until she is finally sick of it.

Seriously though, having Delia take responsibility for feeding herself by cooking a meal or choosing a meal or two sounds like a good idea. She's not going to realize the effort put into a meal until she participates. It might help to take her shopping for her ingredients, too.

You're doing wonderfully, trying to work with both of them on some complicated food issues. However, they're old enough to know that food comes with effort, and should be rewarded with appreciation for the work that goes into it. The first time that no one says "thank you for dinner" to one of your two small cooks, you'll hear about it!

[naomikritzer]

I re-read that book recently (I had it as a kid, and recently checked it out of the library and read it to my two-year-old), and immediately thought (yes, really), "If Peg tried this on her kids, it wouldn't work. I bet they'd happily eat their bread and jam for breakfast, lunch, and dinner until they went off to college."

(Actually, they probably would not. If for no other reason than vitamin deficiencies will typically cause intense cravings.)

[aerden.livejournal.com]

Peg--Eeep! Oh, man...

I hate to say this, but I think it's time to just do what my Dad did with us. He would say, "Your mother cooked it. You either eat it or go without." He didn't give us the option to cook something ourselves, because he knew what sort of things we would cook if left to our own devices.

You're the Mom, not a gourmet chef. You cannot be expected to cook four different meals every night, just to please everyone, nor can you be expected to go through an entire cookbook every night, to find something that doesn't contain food offensive to someone.

In other words, I learned to pick the raw mushrooms out of my salad portions. Your kids can learn the same thing.

*Hugs!* 'cause I know it will hurt.

Chantal

[serenya-loreden.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. My parents love mushrooms, as does one of their three children. My mother's compromise -- mushrooms were either large enough pieces that we could pick them out, or pureed. (It was an issue with texture more so then taste). That's just an example of course, and not everything works out well that way. But really, we learned to work around food items we truly disliked. It isn't like its mere presence poisoned us after all! (Mind you, food allergies are different animals entirely, as I am well aware. We all go through a fair amount of cooking gyrations due to those, but that is different then a mere dislike).

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

Not a one of these comments addresses what I believe is the real issue: that Peg's kids have a superabundance of taste buds, and that therefore *everything* tastes too extreme to them, and they don't enjoy food mostly because of that and partly because their father is also a picky eater. Whether or not he is also a supertaster... I just don't know.

K. [who has dyed their little tongues blue and counted the taste buds thereon]

[naomikritzer]

So how does a supertaster learn to eat enough of a variety of foods to avoid chronic malnutrition?

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Peg, I have to say I'm reminded of "The Little Red Hen". Are they helping you in the kitchen?

I -am- a picky eater. I remain so to this day. There's nothing more frustrating to go to the grocery store, come home, and not want to cook the ingredients I spent an hour trying to choose. But even if there's something (or someplace) else to eat, I *have* to eat the food I prepare. I didn't just spend all that time chopping and mixing to not eat it.

And your time is not a renewable resource, no matter what the household thinks. My mother would cook once a week, and we'd forage in the fridge all week. That was all the time she had, no matter how much she wanted to give us home-cooked meals every day. It just wasn't -there- to give. If I didn't like it, I couldn't begrudge her that, because I was old enough to make my own meals.

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

Nothing really good to add here except support from one loves-to-cook person to another.

[splagxna.livejournal.com]

i am going to add my voice to what tons of people have already said - i think you are being way, way too accomodating. i mean, i haven't got kids (yet!) so i don't really have any experience to speak from, but it seems to me all you are teaching them is that they have the right to expect you to cater to their pickiness.

seems to me they are plenty old enough to cook some basics (and a bit beyond) on their own. i fail to see why you keep bending over backwards for this when you don't even get a 'thank you.' (honestly, if i had someone cooking for me every night...? that would be pretty kickass!)

also, i was pretty picky when i was younger, and while i'm still a reasonably picky adult - well, there is hope. and my sister, who was definitely of the 'i will eat white pasta the end' school of thought, is a very healthy and cuilinarily adventurous vegetarian.

[cirakaite.livejournal.com]

When I was a picky eater as a child, I got very used to making my own arrangements - if I could, I would nudge all the onion to the side of my plate, and not eat it. I requested that my mother, when she wanted to cook with onions, cut them into large chunks so that I could do that, and that much, she would do. She wouldn't have cooked without them, or go through a recipe book eliminating things based on what I wouldn't eat! I started cooking for myself, as well - at first, she would help me choose a recipe, prepare the ingredients etc, but it was understood that planning the meal and making sure she knew what ingredients were necessary before she went grocery shopping.

And needless to say - if she chose to prepare a meal that I simply didn't like, I first had to try a bite, unless it was a well-established dislike, and then had to prepare my own replacement if I got hungry enough. And a bowl of cereal didn't count - at the least, it was a sandwich, with some sort of nutritional benefit (or a non-sugary cereal and a piece of fruit, if I was being really awkward!)

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

They sound a lot like me. As long as they're getting enough of the right nutrients, though, I'd let them make their own meals. White pasta is cheaper than throwing out a meal.
I might also, based on my own brand of picky eating, play down the wasted food. I eat the same thing for almost every meal. My friends make fun of me for it. Why do I persist? Because what if I do try something new and I don't like it? That's an entire plate of food gone, which could have fed someone else. That's me having to admit that I don't like it and making my usual, which means I don't get to eat with my friends, and since I don't see them except at meals some days, I don't want to do that. There's too much invested in trying something new, and it'll only get worse when I stop eating dorm food. Then, if I try something new, I have to make three meals' worth because I can't buy less.

Last time I lived on my own, I ate four peanut butter and jelly sandwiches a day. It's edible, and I know it will always be edible. It's safe. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to make. I will never take a bite of my usual sandwich and want to vomit (cooked carrots, squash) or realize that I simply cannot finish it.

The only way I eat is to remove eating from anything resembling food.

So. Don't let your girls become me, but remember that they're probably getting all the nutrients they need. The goal isn't to give them all they need in three meals a day; it's to keep them from dying of malnutrition while they learn that trying matters, not finishing, and wrap their heads around new and frightening foods.

Goodness, talking about my food issues is upsetting. Someday, I will accept that I have the resources to throw away an entire meal because I decided to try something new. Someday.