A scientific experiment

[pegkerr]

I sat the family down at dinner last night for a little talk. "I have a confession to make. For the last week and a half, I have been running a little experiment."

On Rob's birthday, on the fifteenth of November, he opened his presents in the living room. All the ripped up wrapping paper was left in the middle of the living room floor. Ever since, I have not touched the paper and I have not commented on it. I wanted to see whether it would occur to anyone in this family to pick up that paper and throw it away.

It didn't occur to anyone. No one seemed to notice it. For thirteen days.

So, in our conversation last night, I simply pointed this out. "The thing is," I said, "I think you all walked past that paper without a second thought because you all assumed it was my job to pick it up and dispose of it, because I can't stand mess and it doesn't bother you. It has gotten to the point that I don't feel that anything would get done in this house unless I point it out to people and make them do it. And I don't want to do that anymore."

I told the girls that I had told them no less than four times yesterday to pick up their coats and put them in the coat box. We talked about the fact that we have a chore chart, and they had agreed that the chores I had asked them to do were reasonable (one daily chore and three weekly chores each), but that they were going undone. I asked them whether we should start applying consequences for undone chores, and if so, what they should be. Rob objected that maybe we weren't at that point yet, and instead we should give them a second chance. I thought privately that as one of the worst offenders in the family of failing to pick up after himself, Rob would naturally want a million second chances, but I agreed to let it go for now and see if people would more willingly do their chores, and we would re-visit the issues in two weeks. At that point, if things have not changes, I will insist on setting up a consequences system.

It was a good conversation, and a hard conversation. Both girls cried a lot.

This article that sdn pointed to, about the unfair division of work at home, based on gender lines, seems particularly timely.

Comments

[sdn.livejournal.com]

GO YOU! i can't wait to see how things pan out.

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

That was an interesting experiment. I'm pretty sure I could do the same, with the same result, in my house. I need to think about that methinks...

[naomikritzer]

Good for you.

I remember having a conversation like this with my mother when I was about 17: that was the time it finally clicked. I'm willing to cut a lot more slack for kids than adults. Kids spend so many years being forbidden to meddle with many of the contents of their house, they develop a set of blinders that screens out a lot of what's there. The wrapping paper on the floor is lumped with the crystal wine glasses that they shouldn't use for their juice, and just not seen.

The doesn't excuse the coats, nor does it excuse Rob.

The gender lines article annoyed me; the author clearly feels that I have failed women as a group by choosing to stay home with my children, and the solution to this is to step up the pressure on women not to do that. In other words, I should feel really, really, really guilty for choosing to stay home when I have a college education, and by the way, caring for children is incredibly boring and unfulfilling, even if I find it interesting and rewarding. And to her I would like to say: ppppbbbbbthhhht. I agree about the housework, though. I hate housework.

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

The gender lines article annoyed me too, and I don't have children and never intend to have any. But the focus on the high-pressure corporate job as the only worthy focus of one's career attentions and the only source of true professional and personal fulfillment irritated the heck out of me.

I work for a large corporation, and have known for years that the high-pressure track wasn't for me. I know people, men and women both, who thrive in this environment. I also know men and women both who would bail out tomorrow but for the financial considerations. I can count on one hand the people I know who seem to love their jobs.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Good luck--I have done that here, and tried and tried, but maybe your bunch will hear it, unlike mine. Meantime, since they haven't shown any sign of altering their habits, I have tried to modify mine, and put up with a lot more grundge than I ever thought I could bear. Only my space and the kitchen I focus on...though the kitchen is never as clean as I'd like, as my hands hurt so much.

But I note that everyone always wants to be in my space, lying on my bed studying (theirs are wrecks)--and when I point it out, all I get is "Oh, Mom, quit nagging."

[splagxna.livejournal.com]

your experiment sounds very important, and it is one i will keep in mind for, say, ten years from now when it is my turn (and i'm sure it will be, esp since clutter just makes me bitchy). i do think rob's right to give the girls a second chance; your experiment and conversation really brought home the fact that this is a big issue. that might be enough (you can hope!). but if it's not - yeah, no more slack after that. (and no slack for rob! booo! after so many years of marriage, he should realize and care about how much it bothers you, and care enough about you to do something about it.)

the article was very interesting. a lot of the statistics are bothersome, but i don't agree with the conclusions she draws. maybe she is right that the only way to make a difference in how women are treated (whether at home or in the workplace) is for them to, well, act like successful men. but i also think that she (and society) need(s) to learn to value things other than workplace/corporate success and making money. i guess that was what bothered me the most - her suggestion that women who do the child rearing are not making as important a contribution, etc.

that said, i don't know if i'd ever feel completely filled doing 'just' the child-rearing. luckily, i am aiming for a profession in which (i think) i can work part time without feeling significantly less succcessful than those who work full time.

hmmm. anyway, long ramble that probably belongs more in my journal than in yours. but here it is....

[magicwoman.livejournal.com]

I've tried similar experiments with my SO and with the same results. For example - he promised to wash dishes. So I wait for two weeks and no dishes are washed. When cooking dinner, etc., is attempted, I would have to wash a pan or dish - which always angered me. So after the two weeks with no dishes washed and the kitchen smelling, I washed the dishes. That probably wasn't the best solution - but I couldn't stand the smell any longer. And what does my SO say after the dishes were washed? I was going to do them. Yeah, right.

Today, I no longer wash dishes - it's now his sole responsibility (although I do wash dishes from time to time). He now has his tasks and he does them. If they don't get done, I don't do them. Period.

Good luck,
Susan

[wilfulcait.livejournal.com]

My mother's solution to this? If there are no clean dishes, she doesn't cook. I went the same way and we ate at Burger King so often that they didn't even ask for our order when we came through the door. It took a solid year of not cooking. But now I cook and my husband and daughter do the cleanup every time, no reminders.

[hedwig-snowy.livejournal.com]

"With almost no effort, she landed spot No. 77 on Bernard Goldberg’s “100 People Who Are Screwing Up America.”

I like her already. Interesting piece. THanks.

Let's try this again

[amandageist.livejournal.com]

Some weird thing happened to my earlier comment; I thought I might have posted it by accident before I was ready. If it shows up later, sorry.

I have this conversation with my children just about daily. We have consequences. They don't work. I am unwilling to make them more severe. I can only conclude that I have very stubborn, unaware children who really don't mind walking over trash and clothes, even when I point out the scorpions I shake out of the pants they leave on the floor. It's just not a priority for them, and consequences don't make it one. I just have to be willing to stand over them and make them do it over and over and over and over again, and hope it sinks in by their fourth year in college.

Second chances are a bad idea. They become thirds, and fourths, and then any time you call a halt you're an unfeeling mean horrible monster. There's a *reason* I'm VoldeMom. I stop the cycle early. If I told you twice, and you didn't do it? You had your chance. And now the toy's mine, or the skirt you begged for is getting goodwilled, or you can't watch that DVD again, or you have to go to bed now without dinner, or you ruined the evening for everyone when we left the restaurant early, or you get spanked. I wish I could say this means I have responsive, attentive children. Nope.

Good luck.

~Amanda

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Oh, Peg, that sounds like a terribly hard thing for you to do. I hope it works out for you and you end up with less stress because everyone in the house is helping out.

We had a similar kind of system to what you're using with your chores when I was growing up. With three kids in the family, the chores were divided into three groups centered around a room: kitchen, living room, bathroom. These rotated each week. Kitchen chores included setting the table and doing the dishes each night. All three had a weekly cleaning of the room in question included. What made the weekly chores tolerable to me as a kid was that my siblings were doing theirs at the same time. Maybe having a family chore time each week would help your family not only get the chores done, but come to see them as something that should be done not because you say so, but because they truly make things better. (Having a little celebration in the newly-cleaned living room so everyone sees how nice it is might be a good idea.)

As always, best of luck.

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

Good luck with that. My home is a complete mess also and hubby & I are constantly nagging the kids and each other about it. I'd be interested in hearing about idaes that work.
I have a vague idea that I should be focusing on positrive reinforcment but don't really know how.

About the article you linked to. Right on. Two bist struck me:
If women’s flourishing does matter, feminists must acknowledge that the family is to 2005 what the workplace was to 1964 and the vote to 1920.

There are three rules: Prepare yourself to qualify for good work, treat work seriously, and don’t put yourself in a position of unequal resources when you marry.

The "thing" that keeps me in the workforce is a dire fear of poverty. I grew up poor, after my dad died and my mom was unable to re-enter the workforce. I wonder, though, if my daughters will not be motivated to be financially independent.

My pet peve is that routine housework seems to be my responsibility, with hubby "helping", because there's always some new home improvement project that he "has" to attend to.

[resqdog51.livejournal.com]

I have a vague idea that I should be focusing on positrive reinforcment but don't really know how.


May I suggest a book?

Try Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor.

Its kept in Psychology in your local bookstore (or it is at Borders and Barnes and Noble, anyway) -- its a fantastic behaviour modification manual using 100% positive reinforcement. Not that I necessarily recommend 100% positive reinforcement for all instances, but its a fantastic book for getting the theory down. Best of all -- I learnt about it from a cadaver search dog class, but as soon as I got back to work (I was working in a bookstore at the time) the thing that made it really stick for me is the local Community College was having a seminar on teaching children and ordered 36 copies of it for their seminar.

I've seen the techniques used on (and used them myself) dogs, cats, children, spouses, employees and employers, roommates, squirrels, birds, dolphins, horses.... they work on everything I've seen them used on, because its such an elemental concept. The book is really good at explaining this.

I really really recommend it.

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

Go you!

I'm currently in the early stages of this teaching process with Meg, but it's already frustrating. "Don't just drop that on the floor PUT IT BACK IN YOUR ROOM!" I wish you luck, especially since you have a spouse who is an accessory to the crimes.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

I think you handled that beautifully, as always.

Also, in case you missed it (there were lots of icons!) - in honor of your lovely family:



:)

[resqdog51.livejournal.com]

Speaking as someone who has completely different ideas of 'clean' and 'proper place' than my parental units -- I think you were really cool.

I think that was well done. I wish we'd had more conversations like that in my family growing up -- I think it would have made a big difference.

[malinaldarose.livejournal.com]

Arg. Fortunately for me, my husband is almost more likely to pick something up and dispose or it (or put it away) than I am. We're both slobs who hate doing housework, but we do like to have an occasionally tidy house.

I can't get the dogs to do any housework at all, though, the lazy things. All they do is lie around the house and shed, day in and day out.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

I have done this type of experiment. "How long will it take if the person who doesn't drink soda doesn't bag the soda cans and take them out to the recycling?" "How long will it take if I don't specifically ask PersonX to do the chore he has agreed is his responsibility in general?" The answer is always depressing.

Part of this is my own fault as I have a horror of nagging, and part of it is reasonable with timprov's health problems and markgritter's travel schedule. But part of it is just that the house is "my responsibility."

[zephyrious.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to that article, I found it very relevant to my life. I'm impressed that she proposed solutions. Time for me to stop "finding" everything everyone loses track of in this household.

Good luck with retraining your family.

[ame-chan.livejournal.com]

I feel your pain. I've been applying consequences for years now and I still have to ask > 5 times on average and people STILL don't see the messes. Crazy!

It is very worth nagging and consquencing the kids to care for their own messes. They may not do it perfectly but the idea will get into their heads that THEY are responsible for their own mess, that there is no cosmic maid and NO, Mom =/= Maid. When they are out in the world, the lessons will slowly bubble up to the surface.

I don't know about you but the reason I usually just pick stuff up is because I'm there, it'll get done quickly and I do it "right". The other half of the process of getting your kids and mate to be equal partners is to let go of it being done "right". I've had a hard time with that.

[til-midnight.livejournal.com]

What my parents did was tie our allowance to doing our chores. If we didn't do our chores, we didn't get our allowance for the week.

About that article

[amandageist.livejournal.com]

I read the article on my lunch break. I must say, she sounds a lot like Hermione, who's so sure she knows what's right for house-elves, even in the face of house-elves being happy in their situation. Raises the same questions as that discussion, too, and has the same lack of answers. The definition of "flourishing" will vary from woman to woman; don't criticize those whose definition varies, and believe they are flourishing quite well. She seems to have narrow views of what constitutes power, and puts a high premium on the "public" aspect.

I think there is a kernel that she, and most feminists, want to ignore in turn: if it is the case, across societies and cultures, that women do most of the domestic management and men do more of the providing--maybe it's not just cultural. In the broadest sense of generality: Maybe we really *are* wired differently, to gravitate naturally to different preferences.

Have you ever read "Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years" by Elizabeth Barber? It's an analysis of why the division of labor fell out the way it did, from earliest on. Plus she's a very good writer.

~Amanda, whose childhood dream was to be a stay-at-home mom but fell into a career when she discovered something she loved to do and a company who respects it; married to a man who always wanted to support his family so I could do anything I wanted, but who is now looking longingly at retiring and being a stay-at-home dad

Re: About that article

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

"I think there is a kernel that she, and most feminists, want to ignore in turn: if it is the case, across societies and cultures, that women do most of the domestic management and men do more of the providing--maybe it's not just cultural."

In that case, wife abuse is also biologically determined.

Historically, it is *not* true that men in Western civilization do more of the providing. Women may have worked at home, but they worked for profit: spinning, weaving, minding the store, brewing the beer. Women had many duties over and above managing the household. The woman who only runs the household is an upper- and upper-middle-class luxury.

[dreadmouse.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a man, I have to say a heartfelt "Argh" as I wince with remembered stupidity. :(

I recall my mother conducting similar experiments when I was a child and the bemused looks my brother and I would give her. What was the problem? It wasn't as if the wrapping paper/books/other useless clutter was hurting anybody.

Except, of course, that it was hurting my Mother, who took a great deal of pride in her house.

My wife and I are 9.5 weeks away from parenthood and I know we're going to be facing countless issues we've never faced before. I hope we can do a decent job of respecting each other and maintain our balance. It will be difficult, however; Ms.D. will be staying home with kidlet for a year and I'll be working. For a lot of reasons, that makes sense for us, though it isn't our ideal choice. It is going to be a huge change in our dynamic. We've both always worked full time since we met, except for a year when Ms.D. was in school. Which, really, was a full-time job in itself.

Come the new day, I don't want to be "that guy," the neanderthal who expects his wife to do everything for him. It's not right or fair. Sure, one partner may be working out of the home all day, but I've done enough babysitting to know that a stay-at-home-parent is working hard as well. Working a nine-to-five job is no excuse for not helping out with the lousy jobs around the household.

Rob may be a wonderful and caring man. I don't know him at all, so I have no right to hold an opinion about him. I will say this, though: If he is leaving you all the scutwork in the marriage then, to my mind, he isn't treating you fairly. Kids have an excuse for not thinking to do their share because they are self-absorbed and selfish by their very nature. Becoming an adult is supposed to be about growing into an awareness that other people matter.

My brother and I learned a valuable lesson when my Mom went away for a week to visit her sister. Maybe your family could use a similar wakeup call? I'm certain you could use the break!

[skylarker.livejournal.com]

Well; the plus side of being single and childless is that I mostly don't have to pick up after anyone else (bar cleaning the litter box and occasional bouts of kitty puke.)

It sounds like a husband and children are a lot like overgrown pets and that getting them to behave like independent persons responsible for themselves is a major job in itself. It may be hopeless in the case of children who, after all, start out being truly dependent and may not really 'get' the importance of being fully responsible for themselves until they are forced to live on their own at some point. I'm surprised that an otherwise reasonable adult like Rob can't be more responsible for himself and his part as a parent, though.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised, though. I've lived in a number of coop and room-mate households and it seems to be inevitable that the person or persons most concerned with a tidy house will end up picking up after those who just don't care as much about it.

[tiellan.livejournal.com]

I've done a similar experiment -- although I only have a husband to clean up after -- with identical results. I don't mind so much about the division of work at home, because lately being a homemaker has been one of my jobs, but I also believe in the philosophy that if you make a mess you should clean it up. I take care of the house, ChiaPet makes sure we have enough money to keep the house, that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the fact that I don't want ChiaPet setting a poor example for the kids. I'm content with having my home business and being a homemaker -- but the kids need to learn to clean up after themselves too, and learn some responsibility, and part of that comes from both mom and dad setting a good example. I particularly need to have this discussion with ChiaPet if we adopt any boy children. I see clearly that ChiaPet got his "let the women clean up" attitude from his father, and I won't have him pass it along to any boy children we bring into this home.

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

What I learn from your experiment is that they simply don't see the things to be done. This, of course, makes it impossible to objectively talk about who is doing their share. From their point of view, they do their share. From your point of view, they don't. The difference is that you see more things that hvae to be done.

B

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

You're getting a lot of empathy here, but I can't join in. Some people seem to be taking it for granted that the other members of the family expect you to do all the work, but it sounds to me as if (and I think minnehaha B touches on this) that's not at all the case: rather, they don't see work to be done. Sometimes when such an experiment is done, it turns out that other people really do take it for granted that one person will do the work, and when the work doesn't get done by that person, the others realize that they dislike their surroundings when no one does the work. But it sounds as if that also is not the case at your house. From your account, the only one who dislikes the condition of the house is you.

Having spent my first 18 years having to conform my room to my father's standards, and having spent an additional ten years being expected to conform the house to my first husband's standards (he did his full share, but I was expected to do my share to his standards), and in both cases their standards being far more stringent than mine, I feel a fair amount of sympathy for people who are expected to follow someone else's standards in their own dwelling place.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I am giving a lot of thought these days to what my standards are, and what it means if they are higher than those of the people I live with. I am doing a lot of work re: this that I'm not talking about here. And yet I believe you are missing one important point here.

The chore chart was set up by mutual agreement, and they were the ones who determined what chores each would do. The girls agreed that the chore rotation as we set it up was fair, and that they should be expected to accomplish them. I don't think it's a good life lesson for them to blow off agreements that they have made.


I feel a fair amount of sympathy for people who are expected to follow someone else's standards in their own dwelling place. Well, that is the position I am in, and I have been for years. The house is much, much messier than I am comfortable living in, and it has been for years, and that simply is because I am outnumbered by people who are refusing to do their part, who admit that they are not being fair to me and that they are not living up to responsibilities that should be theirs.

I fiercely resent living in a house that I am ashamed to have my family and friends see. It has gotten to the point that it is severely affecting my mental health. Which is why I have been struggling to find a solution, and yeah that means working both on re-examining the work/chore arrangments we have AND my own expectations.

All the answers I have at present suck.

[dd-b.livejournal.com]

Accurate diagnosis is key to prescribing a workable remedy. On the one hand, I know people use "I didn't see x" when the truth is closer to "I didn't feel like coping with x right then". On the other hand, people don't see things they're not trained to see a lot of the time.

How about having full-family living room (and other) inspections, where each person points out the things that shouldn't be where they are, and the general chores needing doing? This simultaneously makes "I didn't see it" less credible as an excuse, *and* provides some practice in actually seeing it -- so it addresses both probable causes of the situation. (On the other hand, agreeing to vacuum the living room each week and not doing so, for example, would be a rather clearcut failure to keep promises. Promising to "pick up" depends on noticing what needs picking up.)

You may well need to end up with a compromise you're not fully comfortable with here. Short of unhealthy levels of garbage, there's little objective *need* for all rooms to be neat and tidy; it's all a matter of personal preference.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Your full-family inspection sounds like a generally constructive idea, but I can see a sticking point in "where each person points out the things that shouldn't be where they are." In our household, we have some dramatically differing ideas about where things should and shouldn't be, and I imagine most households are the same. In fact, that seems to be the very problem Peg is talking about, isn't it?