HPV Vaccine again

[pegkerr]

By the end of today, both girls will have gotten their first dose of the HPV vaccine.

Like I said, it's a no brainer.

But then, some people don't have brains.

(Yeah, that's unusually harsh for me, I know. But I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, not letting your kids get the vaccine because "it might make them promiscuous" is criminal stupidity.)

And if you haven't read it yet (and you should), here once again is the link to rivka's essay on the vaccine at Respectful of Otters.

Edited to add: The Happy Catholic poster has replied to me, most politely. Our exchange is here. I have offered to cross-post one of the links she pointed to, 10 things you might not know about Gardasil, which originally posted at Evil Slutopia (a source, which she reasonably points out, cannot be dismissed on the grounds of religious bias). In return, I have asked her to read rivka's post. Edited to add, again: rivka has some reactions to the 10 things you might not know about Gardasil" list. See in comments below.

Comments

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

Gov. Rick Perry of Texas has apparently mandated the vaccine for all girls entering 6th grade in TX - and it will be free for lower income girls, and paid for by Medicaid for 18-21 years olds.

I'm flabbergasted, and very pleaased.

[sundancekid.livejournal.com]

In part because the makers were campaign donors.

I mean, it's the right thing to do, but probably not for the right reasons.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

Yay!

Yeah, and getting the flu vaccine makes people go out and let people SNEEZE on them! And, you know, the tetanus vaccine induced so many people to go out and get impaled on rusty nails. The ERs are still complaining about that one. Chock-FULL of rusty nail wounds. And people are so frustrated about not getting polio now that they're trying all SORTS of other ways to get paralyzed.

[/sarcasm]

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Hurrah for you, and your girls. I agree it's a no-brainer.

Good for you...

[dlandon.livejournal.com]

The argument that it will cause promiscuity just blows my mind. One shot will take away your daughter's ability to make healthy decisions and have good judgment? Not unless you've done a sh*tty job parenting. The underlying implication, to me, is that women are loose and flighty, and need a man to keep them from straying. I could be wrong, not being from that generation, but aren't these some of the same arguments used against the pill when it first came out?

At any rate, I'm glad you're taking them for it.

- Dena

[rachet.livejournal.com]

When I was 13, my periods went bonkers and my cramps put me to bed for at least a day. When my mom got me in to see her gyno he suggested going on the pill. We were both very much for it. Anything to keep them on a schedule and to get rid of the body twisting cramps I'd get (not to mention the pyschotic breaks I'd have if Chris (my brother) dared to ask me a question or act like a little brother).

Several months later my mom was talking to a friend of hers when I was in the other room. She was saying how happy we both were with the results. Her friend gasped and said "Wait...you put Rachel on the pill?"

"Well, yes."

"Aren't you afraid that was just a green light for her to have sex?"

"Uh...how so?"

I walked into the room, extremely confused and curious as to what the response was going to be. When she saw I was listening she was very flustered and stammered something about "making it easy" or something.

Then I looked at my mom and then back to her and said "I don't see how regulating my periods and reducing my cramps has anything to do with my judgment and morals."

She didn't say anything after that.

Idiot.

And what a low opinion she must have had of me!

[rachet.livejournal.com]

Oh..and GO YOU!!! That's great news. Wish we had it when we were of age.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Good. Good. Yes.

Someone close to me has cervical cancer that may have metastasized into lymphatic cancer. I wish I could implant her parents' emotional state into the parents who write blog posts like the one you linked, without actually harming their kids. Forcible empathy, dammit.

[julie-b-d.livejournal.com]

Hi Peg,

A good friend of mine also called me on the whole "promiscuity" issue. I was rather surprised that that issue is what jumped to her attention as there were three other issues mentioned first that I thought were much more important ... this may have been a problem with me formatting the post so I have tried to fix that. If you read through the entire post you would notice that I am worried more about the possible fast tracking by the FDA, inadequate testing on young girls as a control group, and the money trail from Merck to Governor Perry. (I also tried to clarify my comments in an addendum on the end ... sometimes "frame of mind" can lend understanding to what, on the face of it, looks like pure simple-minded religious prejudice ... which I also despise.

I completely agree that concerns over promiscuity would be no reason not to take a drug proven effective without the above concerns. However, there are so many other issues that have nothing to do with any moral judgment and everything to do with concern for the medical safety of young girls.

If nothing else, I'd encourage you to take a look at the links to Evil Slutopia's list of 10 things you might not know about Gardasil ... just to get the POV of people who you can't possibly accuse of having any religious bias. Here's the link: http://evilslutopia.blogspot.com/2007/01/gardasil.html

Whatever choices anyone makes on this issue are perfectly justified either way ... I was just trying to make sure that everyone knew the issues that are not getting mentioned.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I have read the link you provided, thanks. I ask in return that you read the link I provided above, here.

My doctor took care to make sure that mine was an informed decision: she explained that the vaccine did not completely eliminate the chance of cervical cancer and it would not eliminate the necessity of pap smears.

The comment thread up above also mentioned the issue of Perry getting campaign donations from Merck. My reaction is still, yes I am perfectly well aware that the profit motive exists for America's drug manufacturers. This is not a surprise to me. I do not think, however, that precludes them from coming up with ideas or products that are in my or my family's best interests. I am not going to try to parse whether Perry's or Merck's motivations are pure as the new-driven snow: my girls will still get the vaccine.

I will edit my original post to include the link you provided me. Thanks for replying.

[ame-chan.livejournal.com]

A no brainer indeed. Mine are getting it too. It seems inconceivable to me that any parent would not want this for their daughters.

[morganmalfoy.livejournal.com]

While I don't think an HPV vaccine will make promiscuity rise, I do think the facts aren't out there. I was discussing this with another teacher friend of mine whose students had asked her about this, worried that they could just spontaneously have cervical cancer. Obviously, cervical cancer is not ONLY caused by HPV, but the advertisements (at least in Florida) say nothing about cervical cancer and HPV being an STD, they focus solely on the fear of cancer.

And while I hope that this vaccine would be widely used, I do not plan on being vaccinated. Why? Because I'm not planning on having sex anytime soon, nor can I see any other situation where I would need it. If you and your kids want to be vaccinated, I'm glad you're being protected against cervical cancer, and HPV, which is alarmingly rampant. I also hope, however, that we are allowed to continue to have some autonomy over our bodies.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Obviously, cervical cancer is not ONLY caused by HPV, but the advertisements (at least in Florida) say nothing about cervical cancer and HPV being an STD, they focus solely on the fear of cancer.

Cervical cancer is only caused by HPV. A woman who has never been exposed to HPV will never get cervical cancer.

There are good reasons for not marketing Gardasil as an STD vaccine. Most people, regardless of their level of sexual activity, don't consider themselves to be at risk for contracting an STD. (It's crazy, but there you go.) People think they know how to choose a "clean" partner, or think that you can only get an STD if you have a lot of sexual partners, or that you can only get an STD from sex with a relative stranger. Those are the dumb reasons - people who are making major errors in logic about their STD risk.

But smart people can also underestimate their risk of HPV. They might believe that they're not at risk because they always use condoms, because they get regularly screened for STDs and require screening from their partners too, or because they are committed to being a virgin until marriage. But condoms don't offer full protection against HPV. It's not included in a standard battery of STD tests. And plenty of women who were virgins on their wedding night have been subsequently infected by their husbands, who weren't. The possibility of rape must also be considered.

About 90% of sexually experienced adults, even monogamously married ones, wind up exposed to HPV. What percentage of them do you think would describe themselves as being "at risk for an STD?" My experience, from working in the public health and health psychology fields, suggests that the number would be well under 25%.

So Gardasil isn't marketed or presented to the public as an STD vaccine, because from a public health standpoint it's a bad idea for people to be thinking about the HPV vaccine as something that they only need if they have a risky sex life.

Also, think about the ramifications of recommending vaccination "before sexual activity," rather than having a standard age for vaccination somewhere in early puberty. How many teenage girls do you think would go to their parents and say "I think I'm ready to get the HPV shot now"? How many girls wind up having sex when they didn't plan to, or didn't want to? And once they've been exposed to HPV, they can't ever get the vaccine in the future.

Vaccination for HPV needs to be taken out of the context of sexual activity, from a public health standpoint, or not everyone who needs it will get it.

[darth-kittius.livejournal.com]

It's so wonderful that they have that now. I'm trying to decide if I should shell out the $400 to get it myself. I can't get it paid for since I'm out of the age-range. I'm thinking it's worth it!

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

I think that link you posted to the Evil Slutopia blog really made sense to me. I am over 30 and have no children yet, and I don't think I'm eligible to take this vaccine. By the time I have a pre-teen child the information out there will be different, I expect--either more grounded or rejected.

I also don't think it can encourage promiscuity, myself, but I do have some sympathy with those that think it might be under-tested.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Take a look at rivka's responses to that list (there as several comments to my original post).

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Looks like she thinks I'm too mean to listen to, but she did edit to add a link to my post.

I'm so glad that your girls will be protected, Peg. When I was pregnant with Alex, I was tested for HPV and found to have one of the cancer-causing strains. Now that will be hanging over my head for the rest of my life. Not for my daughter!

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I was going to e-mail you to give you a heads up about the exchange when I got home tonight if you hadn't seen it. I started to reply to her post, addressing her off-the-cuff remark about your "baggage," informing her that your work at an HIV clinic gave you a seat front and center learning about what havoc the religious right could make in people's lives and so it was no wonder you felt the way you did. I erased the comment, thinking you'd prefer to be the one to respond, if anyone should--that was why I was going to e-mail you. But perhaps it is just best to let sleeping dogs lie. She was pretty polite to me and I was pretty polite to her, but it is clear we see things differently.

Ugh, I'm sorry to hear about the news you got when you were pregnant with Alex. (Yep, yep, I'm making the right decision.)

(Any thoughts re: her Evil Slutopia link?)

[aome.livejournal.com]

We had already given some pretty hefty financial aid to family last year, or I would have demanded we give the vaccine as our "Christmas present" for our three nieces (9, 10 and 13 - all perfect ages). Maybe next year; their parents will never be able to afford it, otherwise. So - go you! I think it's worth the risk. Any chance you could also be part of an initial long-term study? That could be interesting, too.

[faithhopetricks.livejournal.com]

Good for you. You are an excellent mother and do your best to protect your girls. I wish my own parents had been as proactive about my own safety.

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I'm never that eager to try out a new drug* (or have my kids try it). There's a whole lot of difference between trials and actually getting it into a large population. I'll wait a couple of years for version 2.

(*afaic, anything they shoot into you with a needle is a drug).

[nwl.livejournal.com]

Guess I'm the only one who watched The View or listened to NPR yesterday. There was a story on the HPV Virus vaccine on NPR, on the influence of Merck on the Texas law. I looked around and this was the only story I could find in print:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/02/D8N1PVG80.html

Sample paragraphs:
Merck is bankrolling efforts to pass laws in state legislatures across the country mandating it Gardasil vaccine for girls as young as 11 or 12. It doubled its lobbying budget in Texas and has funneled money through Women in Government, an advocacy group made up of female state legislators around the country.

and
Perry has several ties to Merck and Women in Government. One of the drug company's three lobbyists in Texas is Mike Toomey, his former chief of staff. His current chief of staff's mother-in-law, Texas Republican state Rep. Dianne White Delisi, is a state director for Women in Government.

On The View I expected Rosie O'Donnell to be a strong advocate for it and I was surprised. Either she heard the same NPR story I did or read it somewhere as she was totally against Texas giving out the vaccine and said she would not allow her daughter to be vaccinated. She felt there was something funny going on with Merck and was uncomfortable (my take) with a vaccine that had so little testing. I looked for a report on this on the web and found nothing so far. Considering how the press seems to follow Rosie, I was sure this would be big news, along with Merck's ties with Texas government. I didn't come up with anything.

So, there is at least one public figure who is willing to take a stand against the vaccine and there seems to be little press about it. Hm.

Some of the sites I found had quite about about the pro views on the Today program, which I also saw, but nothing about The View.

It wouldn't hurt to be a little sensitive to those of us who were around for the thalidomide babies as well as seeing that drugs have been pulled in recently. Not everyone who has a different view from you is stupid or evil. Maybe they just have a different perspective, such as the Happy Catholic poster did. And they are willing to be polite and open to talking, even when people are belittling or screaming at them.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

Folks who were around for the thalidomide mess (1956 to 1962) were ALSO around to reap the immediate benefits of the Salk vaccine for polio (1955; which had about 3 years of testing) and the Sabin vaccine for polio (1962; which had about 4 years of testing before it went on the market).

[eal.livejournal.com]

My plan, assuming the efficacy studies are there, is to get it for B when he's old enough. I'm with anam_cara in that we need to raise responsible boys too.

I have a feeling I'm going to be the only mom in my peer group saying the following two things:

1) There a people who like boys, people who like girls, and people who like both. When you figure out which kind of people you are, let me know.

2) Do you have a condom that hasn't expired in your wallet? (everytime his teenaged self walks out the door)

Maybe I'm promoting promiscuity with point #2, but I can guarantee you if we have a second child and it's a girl, she'll be asked the same damned thing.

Personally, I went through sex ed in 5th grade, 6th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, and 10th grade. I was so well educated that none of the usual tales would have worked on me. And that's what I think prevents promiscuity more than anything -- good, solid education.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

This is a tangent to a tangent, but the essay that lists the "10 things" says: "So why wasn’t Gardasil tested on men, and why isn’t Merck funding PR campaigns to educate men about their HPV risk? Is it because they feel that there’s more of a stigma surrounding men’s sexual health, and that it would be more difficult to convince men and parents of boys of the risks?"

Given the numerous "ED" commercials I see, it's hard for me to imagine how anyone could seriously maintain that there's "a stigma surrounding men's sexual health" that would prevent such PR!

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Not to be too flippant, I think a lot of guys see a major differnce between sexual health & not being able to sport a big willy. The sexual health business is "icky", but the hardon issue is VERY IMPORTANT!!!

I'm not saying I agree with this, or that it isn't a stupid attitute, but...well, us guys are often kinda dumb.

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

Bleh. I made a comment to this post, but now it's not there. It's bad enough that LJ won't give me my messages, now I can't comment sometimes. Did you get it? I could repost, but I didn't save it or anything. *headdesk*

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

Okay, never mind. The comment's on another post. I must have clicked the link and then forgot to click back. I love ADD. :/

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

Here via friends/friends

I once did some data-entry temp work for the National Cancer Registry (UK database recording every instance of cancer). Alongside the vast number of minor skin lesions in elderly men and women, instances of industrial diseases, smokers, and the unknown-reasons unlucky, were lots and lots of cases of cervical cancer, many in young women aged less than twenty. These women had cancer. Whether they got it because they were sex-workers, raped, or unlucky with their boyfriends is completely irrelevant to the fact that they had a potentially life-threatening disease, requiring unpleasant treatment, which in some cases (because I also had data-entry from death certificates) didn’t work. Why on earth wouldn’t people want them to avoid it?

(Mind you, I’m probably biased as a colleague of mine was involved in the development of Gardasil. As you don’t know me from Adam, that in itself is a completely useless piece of information. Except to say that for all the dubious morality of Big Pharma’s marketing tactics and actions in the Third World, not everyone involved in medicine/drug development is a company scientist with a vested interest only in profit. Many of them are academics with a vested interest in advancing scientific knowledge and human health, and, not incidentally, protecting their own daughters from the risk of cervical cancer).

[avengangle.livejournal.com]

I'm still young enough to get it (24) but I can't afford it -- no health insurance and limited funds. Am I sexually promiscuous? No. Is there really a chance that I would be exposed to it? Not at this point, no, but things might change. But good lord -- unless it's proven in the next 20 years that this vaccination is either pointless or seriously problematic, if I have a daughter, she's getting her butt vaccinated as soon as she can.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

I'd been sexually active for about fifteen years, I'd had yearly Pap tests for fifteen years, I'd had multiple partners and been honest with my health-care providers about them, I almost had a PhD ... and when I was diagnosed with HPV on my cervix I did not know that it was sexually transmitted and they did not tell me.