Environmentalism and parenting
Apr. 11th, 2007 08:59 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
I have friended the
bikepirates community. It's been interesting: this is (I gather) a rather younger group--I feel like quite the old fart, being in my forties and all. I joined to pick up information about this bicycling thang, but there is an attitude vibe there, too, which can be a bit rough to take.
For example, someone made a post here advertising a new community,
carfreepirates. Which is cool. One of the commenters, however, said something that sticks in my craw:
I want to reduce my environmental footprint. But please consider: when you're a parent, and you have to get kids to activities and back and forth from day care, bussing usually doesn't work. And bicycling is not an option either.
Bottom line: Please don't assume I'm selfish because I drive a car. I drive a car because I'm a parent.
But I'm also an environmentalist because I'm a parent.
Edited to add: Today is a classic example. I drove today. Why? Because of the snow (argh)? No. Because Delia has a doctor's appointment. I have to leave work, drive to her school to pick her up, drive her to the doctor, and then get her home. This trip would be absolutely impossible by either mass transit or bicycle.
And *snerk* Someone has replied to the original poster (who headed the post with the tagline "Every car a murder, every bike a love affair"): "How do you think all those bike parts get to the shops? It's not magic, that's for sure."
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
For example, someone made a post here advertising a new community,
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
FYI - there used to be a non_drivers community, but it dissappeared for mysterious reasons.I replied:
I've joined up, since I'm car free and sometimes I need a little morale boost, since no one *with* a car, really gets it, even though they also don't understand how I can stay in such good shape and I'm not stressed out and road raged all the time.
I HAVE to have a car since I have kids to transport, and there is no bus to where I need to go. I could hardly balance both of them (and their karate sparring gear) on my handlebars.For what it's worth, I wasn't the only person to challenge the original commenter. I feel as though I'm doing my part by starting to bicycle. But I've seen this before, this smug dismissal of my selfishness for driving a big car (I have an old jeep with 140,000+ miles). We all hear environmentalists railing against people who drive SUVs. Yes, I guess I'm defensive about it. And yet, really, with two kids that I'm taking four times a week to karate class (with huge duffel bags stuffed with sparring equipment) what else can I do?
But I ride my bicycle to work.
I want to reduce my environmental footprint. But please consider: when you're a parent, and you have to get kids to activities and back and forth from day care, bussing usually doesn't work. And bicycling is not an option either.
Bottom line: Please don't assume I'm selfish because I drive a car. I drive a car because I'm a parent.
But I'm also an environmentalist because I'm a parent.
Edited to add: Today is a classic example. I drove today. Why? Because of the snow (argh)? No. Because Delia has a doctor's appointment. I have to leave work, drive to her school to pick her up, drive her to the doctor, and then get her home. This trip would be absolutely impossible by either mass transit or bicycle.
And *snerk* Someone has replied to the original poster (who headed the post with the tagline "Every car a murder, every bike a love affair"): "How do you think all those bike parts get to the shops? It's not magic, that's for sure."
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:06 pm (UTC)There are some really self-righteous bikers around. They're annoying. They annoy the heck out of Ed, who regularly bikes or takes public transportation to work. Many of the self-righteous car-free people are also self-righteously child-free, because as you note, it's damn hard to get kids to karate (or music lessons or art classes) without a car.
The bottom line is that self-righteous people are irritating, even when they're being self-righteous about something that you generally support (biking, for example).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:14 pm (UTC)It's kind of like those folk who think they're superior because they don't have a television.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 12:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 06:15 am (UTC)Speaking as an environmentalist . . .
Date: 2007-04-11 02:15 pm (UTC)That's not really a big car. I mean, it's sort of big, but the environmentalists railing against people who drive SUVs (I'm one of them) more care about people who drive Expeditions and Escalades. My boyfriend and I were at Panera the other day (yes, we drove there) and there was about a '95 Cherokee (not a Grand Cherokee, just a regular one) next to a Lincoln, and while the Lincoln (whatever it was) is just a car and the Cherokee is an SUV and all that jazz, the Cherokee looked tiny next to it.
So no, I'm not going to complain about you having a Jeep. (Also, I'm from Toledo, where Jeeps were invented. There's a good chance that the car you're driving was made in Toledo. If we didn't have Jeep, Toledo's economy would be even worse.)
But I'm thrilled that you're doing the bike thing. I really like reading about it. Also, you're aware of what you're doing. That, I think, is the most important thing. I'm aware that I drive too much, despite the fact that my car gets 40 mpg. I'm aware that I don't recycle as much as I should. I'm also aware that I'm moving soon and that'll fix a lot of this.
Good luck!
Re: Speaking as an environmentalist . . .
Date: 2007-04-11 02:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:20 pm (UTC)instead these folks who are so ready to point out my unfriendly-to-the-earth ways want to persecute the folks that are just doing their best. and that is typically those of us with large families (and to those who would criticize my family having 5 children, i defend that it took 6 adults to make the 5 so we're still -1 population growth). i can't find affordable housing closer in to the city where mass transit is available. a home to rent that would fit my brood would cost us about $3k a month. (let me look like bill the cat here) and that's now that the older two are moved out. otherwise there'd be no housing for us at all. however, we did buy a hybrid -- wasn't the most cost-effective choice, but i sent a message with my dollars. i recycle. i try to reduce my waste by buying whole foods and not packaged stuff. if i wasn't stuck on rental property currently, i'd be composting and doing some self-farming. i try to do as much of my business transactions electronically. (although some financial institutions make that difficult).
in short, i really get grumbly when someone makes disparging remarks and offers no attempt to correct the situation. don't get pissed at me -- talk to some folks who can really make some huge changes.
kudos to you for biking to work!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:39 pm (UTC)In other words, you're right :-)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:47 pm (UTC)thanks for pinging some warm memories for me!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 05:27 pm (UTC)Yeah, agreed. (Although to be fair, I do know environmentalists who try to do just that - they're just usually not the most, hmm, vocal and visible ones). It's so frustrating how spread out many things are in this country, precisely because we had cars and envisioned everyone having cars and saw no need to plan for a future with anything else.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:27 pm (UTC)It's very difficult to get around without cars in most American cities, with the exception of NYC and Chicago. Mass transit is almost non-exsistant and when it is available it's only convenient, i.e. within walking distance, to very few parts of the city. My city suffers from urban sprawl as I'm sure many do. We have space. We move into it. I don't like it, but that's the reality of where I live. The closest grocery store is a mile away, across a major highway. For people to expect Americans to give up cars completely, when our society is based so much on the ability and necessisity to get around at ease, is ridiculous. We should all do what we can, as you are riding your bike, but for most people that live in the suburbs, what we can do is limited to buying a car that uses alternative fuels, gets good gas milage or is a hybrid and to be sensible about how much we use our vehicles, not to give them up entirely.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 02:58 pm (UTC)This I understand entirely
Date: 2007-04-11 03:01 pm (UTC)Now I have a three month old and it's almost impossible to take him anywhere without the car. It's actually made worse by some of the bus policies in place in this backwards town. I can't buy anything when I'm out with him because I need my hands to hold him and fold his stroller. I tried believe me.
We now own a used Subaru Outback. It fits us and his stuff. I will be getting my license soon so I can go without my husband.
I don't like it but I need to be able to care for my son.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:01 pm (UTC)I love my car. Riding around in a climate controlled box with music is cool. I very much wish it was more enviro friendly we had wanted a Prius but couldn't wait a year for one. Maybe our next vehicle can be some hybrid.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:01 pm (UTC)We're not going to save the planet in one miracle move, and the entire population isn't going to give up their cars. It's either going to happen by each person deciding what they can do, or it's not going to happen and we're all going to run off a cliff someday. You and I do what we've decided are reasonable measures for us to take, and we answer questions when people ask them. This plants seeds in people's heads and they can then make their own choices. I personally think that's much more effective than evangelism, which only ever works (no matter what you're selling) if someone's already searching for an answer before you come to them.
Devil's advocate: It's not too hard to see where some of the indignation comes from though; in some areas of the country, people treat cyclists quite badly. I've read stories of people actually trying to kill cyclists for no apparent reason other than the crazy cyclist seemed to think that they had a right to be on the road and delay a car by 2 or 3 seconds, so they needed killin'. Add the general road rage element in, and it's pretty easy for cyclists to start believing that just being in a car automatically makes anyone into an asshole. Heck, I've seen cyclists posting that THEY tend to become big jerks when they get in a car.
If you have questions about bike commuting, I'd recommend going to bikeforums.net and going to the commuting forum. The people there are quite helpful. Search the archives. Almost any conceivable question has been answered. They don't mind too much if you restate the question either. Most of us are just looking for something to do besides work. :)
I've seen people post questions about their route, and have both knowledgeable locals critique their route, and others use google maps to make suggestions.
There are often posts of "I had this bad experience in traffic, how do you think I should have handled it better?" that turn into useful discussions.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:03 pm (UTC)It's possible that this person lives someplace where it IS possible to be a parent and car-less, though, which has been our situation for the last 14+ years. I know other parents who also don't own cars and who get around with their kids on buses or walk or ride bikes. Which is something we can do in our city, because we have a reasonably good mass transit system and walkable neighborhoods, as well as good bike paths by the river, including ramps for getting up onto the city streets from the bike paths (when you're downtown).
The problem is, I think, partly having to do with the comment someone else put above about very poor community planning, such that a lot of communities are not designed to be bike-and-bus friendly, but also the fact that a lot of people don't go out of their way to seek out communities that would allow them to do without a car completely or at least much of the time. I've known far too many people who think that when it's time to start a family they "need" to move to the suburbs. That's not a solution unless you move to a real town where people can walk to get from one place to another or where there are buses, trolleys and/or subways. We need to bring back the town, support mass transit, and end the rule of suburbian sprawl if we're every going to begin to tackle runaway emissions.
Los Angeles has shown us all that even the city with the worst reputation for having nothing but people living in their cars can turn around and develop a mass transit system that works, that relieves congestion on the streets and highways, and that makes it possible for more people to do without cars or do use their cars a lot less often. Unfortunately, where you're living seems to be a place where there are limited options for folks wishing to reduce their car-use; fortunately, the status quo doesn't have to be the law of the land. Perhaps it's time for Minneapolis to follow LA's lead and improve mass transit so that folks like you who really don't WANT to be driving constantly have other options.
You don't drive because you're a parent, Peg, any more than that other person is NOT driving because he's NOT a parent. I'm a parent, too, and I don't drive. He doesn't drive because he's in a place that makes that possible. You drive because your government makes it very difficult for you not to drive. And governments can be changed.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:23 pm (UTC)There is still no bus route between me and the dojo, however. :-(
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 04:17 pm (UTC)This equation became IMPOSSIBLE when Delia was added to the family.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 11:28 am (UTC)Of course, my body would not be up to it any more and only in memory is the situation amusing.
Often both the toddler and the baby fell asleep during the ride, so I had a sleeping child under each arm, folded stroller in one hand, bag in other hand ... that meant I had to shout into bus often enough: "Please throw the shoe the baby dropped and the doll out to the stop!"
I am amazed I killed none of the kids, dropping them under the bus wheels. But being able to manage on my own made me proud of myself and the children picked up the right attitude (even if I DID find out later that the older ones had taken rides alone when 8 and 3 years old. So the attitude of being able to manage alone was not dangerless when I was myself busy dealing with the baby).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 05:16 pm (UTC)Sure seems like that's the prevailing opinion some days.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 09:42 pm (UTC)There are many ways to be friendlier to the environment and spend less money on gas and car maintenance, but a big part of that is to make some tough decisions about where you're going to live. When we decided where to rent and eventually buy a house it was pretty much all dependent on proximity to mass transit. Most people don't think this way or can't afford to at this time. I personally know loads of people who drive their cars, alone, at times when they could very well take mass transit, which would put fewer emissions into the atmosphere, reduce the cars on the roads, improving traffic flow, support mass transit with both money and larger numbers of riders, and reduce the money they're spending on gas and car maintenance. Very few people decide to ride their bikes to work, like Peg, for any reason at all, whether because it could save them money or produce any of the above benefits, but more people need to think about trying to use their cars less or stop using them altogether if anything is going to change for the better in this country.
I'm used to espousing philosophies that make people think I'm a commie. It just goes with the territory. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 09:53 pm (UTC)I don't know if I qualify as car-lite. I haven't driven my car to work for well over a year except for one day last month when my bike had a major meltdown (pedal stripped). I do put more miles on my bike per year than on my car, by a fair margin, but I do drive my car several days of the week, to take kids to various things in the evening. We might have made it to taekwon do but the studio moved from 3.5 miles away to 9 miles away, and while that wouldn't bother me too much, my 10-year-old is probably not yet up to riding 9 miles, doing an hour of TKD, then riding back and still working in homework and getting to bed on time.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:39 pm (UTC)How far is your dojo, anyway, and are your kids allowed to bike there? (Not that I am saying they should, or know if it's possible with their bags of gear.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:51 pm (UTC)Besides the sparring gear duffle bag, they have their bos (for stick fighting, each the length of the girls' height), which would also be awkward for transporting on a bike.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 03:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 04:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 04:44 pm (UTC)My parents, who are environmentally concious, still ended up with an Pilot SUV and a minivan. The SUV was because they have a home in the mountains, and their cars weren't handling the drive; the minivan was because they have 4 grandkids who are all still in child seats, whom they often end up schlepping around. The requirements for childseats make it next to impossible to have standard cars with young children really -- when the entire family is together you're looking at 8 adults and 4 kids -- a minimum of 3 cars to go anywhere.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 05:22 pm (UTC)This is another thing that a lot of people without kids don't understand.
All kids today are put in carseats until they are in late elementary school. It's no longer okay to let a kid ride shotgun, or to cram four in the back seat and have them share seat belts, or pile a slumber party's worth of girls into the back of a station wagon. I have only two kids, but having a minivan means that we can offer rides to friends, we can carpool, we can take more than just our nuclear family when we go on an outing. We can put our family into a standard sedan but no extra people will fit.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 05:20 pm (UTC)Around the corner from me is a Yoga studio and a Tax Accountant that use a somewhat run-down building. That building, according to my elderly neighbors who've lived in their house since the 1960s, was once the cluster of corner stores: the grocery, the dairy, the butcher shop. To do your shopping, you'd walk down to the store, buy your food, and walk home. Another block down is the neighborhood school. Once there was a library somewhere near here, but within walking distance. And so on.
We do have a convenience store just two blocks away, and various other things within easy walking distance. But there's a heck of a lot of stuff we routinely need that can't be purchased at stores I can walk to.
The flip side of this is that opportunities have expanded, as well. In the days of the corner grocery, your daughters would not have been able to take karate, because that kind of enrichment activity would not have been available to a child in Minneapolis.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 07:17 pm (UTC)However, I want to take issue with the cars are inevitable consequences of kids thing.
Cars are inevitable consequences of suburbs.
I have never driven and am a parent -- but I have made choices about where to live and work that take not having a car into account. And Z goes off on the bus with his sh'nai and his kit quite happily. There is a bus, because I chose to live where there is. I can't cycle or drive or even walk very far, so I need there to be.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 08:52 pm (UTC)I do live within the city limits, btw, not a suburb. My commute to the heart of downtown is five miles.
But the bus system (which I have used extensively, including when Fiona was a baby and then a toddler) is very frustrating. Basically, in order to go anywhere, you have to go downtown first, and then back out. There are not nearly enough cross-town routes.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 10:29 pm (UTC)I was thinking a bit today -- while driving -- about the choices I make, and when I drive and why, and what choices I would have been forced to make if I couldn't drive. We've talked about going down to one car, because Ed can take the light rail to work, and frequently does. The train stops literally right outside his building; it's very convenient. Some days, however, he has to go to off-site meetings, and they simply assume that everyone has a car and can arrange to drive over. In a society where cars were less of a given, that would not be the assumption; the office would provide a van, or loaner cars, or a teleconferencing room, or something. We may go down to one car anyway, and plan on him calling a taxi occasionally to get to where he needs to go; the amount we won't be spending on a second car, insurance, gas, etc., will buy a heck of a lot of taxi rides. But it's funny the way employers will just assume you can get places, even if the job description does not say "must have own car" anywhere in it.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 09:43 pm (UTC)Also, he decided that we were probably vegetarians because he thought we were nice. (Demi-veg and niceness has nothing to do with it.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 10:30 pm (UTC)There is a special place in hell for self-righteous people who maintain their ideological purity by dumping all the difficult chores on their spouse or partner.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 10:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-11 11:59 pm (UTC)Now that my son's no longer in daycare, I can take the bus home with him, but if I need to run any errands, I'm better off with the car. And the bus stop is not a great place to wait for half an hour with an autistic kid.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 01:19 am (UTC)But I drive 44 miles round trip to go to work, and haul 1500 lb round bales or 300-400 lbs of horse feed in the box of my pick up. Our pull a horse trailer to haul horses to and from shows, breeders, or trail rides.
Could not imagine riding a bike to check cows out in the pastures, at 2am in the morning. It takes me long enough to check cows in a pick up, couldn't imagine trying to do it on a bike.
Bikes have there place in life, but they will never replace vehicles, not in my world they won't.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 03:23 am (UTC)What makes people live without cars, or decide to use them less, are better public transit. And more options for housing, jobs, and childcare NEAR public transit. Flexibility is critical--adults change jobs and take evening classes at a university across town, children are taken to daycare and later to school. It can help a lot to see how other people commute successfully without cars, or to have assistance arranging occasional rides. (With carpools, rentals, or something like Zipcar.) I don't think mockery helps at all.
There are people who live in pedestrian-hostile, bike-hostile, public-transit-hostile cities. They have NO CLUE it is possible for an independent adult to function without driving. These people are not necessarily enemies.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 06:29 am (UTC)If I had been allowed to work from home a few days a week - and some of my jobs would have been as productive or more that way - then I could have driven a lot less. My managers did not allow that option, despite working in a city with an inversion layer, for a big company in a city that was under an onus to reduce emissions. Believe me, I asked - it would have given me a lot of time back.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 05:41 pm (UTC)Keep looking around for ways to drive less. A detachable bike trailer can greatly expand biking opportunities because you can carry lots of groceries or a duffel bag of sports equipment. Even without a trailer you can still do major grocery shopping by making it a family outing and everyone fills their knapsacks and panniers. Keep prodding your elected officials for better public transit.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-12 06:29 pm (UTC)Last year, I decided to get a car. I was working part-time, living at my mom's house in the suburbs about 15 miles from my job, and working the 4-8 shift. And yet I got some flak from people who thought that it was completely reasonable to bike for two hours in the dark through a sketchy neighborhood in a city where cyclists are target practice.
The main obstacles for most people are structural, not a matter of laziness, and I think more people should recognize that.