Sorting clothing angst

[pegkerr]

Fiona has been weeping for the last half hour.

We have been going through clothes, because their drawers are overstuffed and we just got another crop of hand-me-downs from the cousins. So I went through their drawers with them and sorted: these to go to the younger cousin, these to go back in the drawer, these to get thrown away. And Fiona is weeping, weeping, weeping, over a couple of shirts, torn and stained with filth and dearly, dearly loved.

She went into the hall where I had put the garbage bag filled with the discards, pulled the shirt out again, and collapsed on the floor, her face buried in it, sobbing.

I know what you're thinking: Peg, if it means so much to her, why not let her have the damn shirt?

I'll tell you why: I married a man who has obsessive-compulsive disorder, who gets physically ill at the idea of throwing things away. At the time I married him, I didn't know what immense stress that would cause our lives. And I am determined that the girls have to learn this: when something is ruined, you have to learn how to get rid of it.

Edited to add: Both girls have a keepsake box, which holds old clothes which are particularly lovely and sentimental (first dress, first christmas dress, etc.), even if they are too small for them to wear.

However, the clothes that Fiona has cathected onto so strongly are not only old, they are faded and covered with holes and ground in stains and dirt. There is nothing the least bit lovely about them. They are complete and utter rags.

I did try to give her some feeling of control by telling her: you can keep one tie-dye T-shirt (she had about five).

You must also keep in mind that the girls are growing. We have limited storage room for clothes that fit them. We can't spare drawer space for clothes that don't fit them and are utter rags, just because they love them so.

Comments

[rachet.livejournal.com]

is any part of the shirt salvageable? Perhaps you can cut pieces of out of each of them and make them into a pillow or part of quilt?

The only reason I suggest this is my mother had the same problem with me when I was younger. And she took the t-shirts that I loved so much and took pieces of each and put them into a quilt. No more shirt...but a wonderful blanket I'll cherish the rest of my life.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

A thing that works for someone I know who is like that about clothes is to cut out a square of OK material from the ruined thing and keep the square for patchwork. She used to sew the square onto jeans as a patch, and now she makes quilts, and she has too many maybe but she no longer has a house you can't move in.

[knitmeapony.livejournal.com]

I was going to suggest what the other two above already have. I love my t-shirt quilt. And I think it makes a good point that it can't be used as a t-shirt anymore. Can't be worn.

[dancingwriter.livejournal.com]

How I sympathize with you! My son has this problem, too; he has Asperger's Syndrome, on account of which he also manifests a lot of OCD symptoms. I have used the quilt solution that Rachet suggests (and variations, such as turning cherished pieces of gift wrapping into bookmarks)--but that's not always practicable. A few years ago, Owen came up with his own technique for letting go--he holds onto the thing to be disposed of, mentally "takes his energy out of it" (I'm not sure just how he visualizes that, though--as I said, he came up with this himself), and then throws the thing away with never a look back. Things that have very special associations, though--such as the empty shampoo bottle from the hotel we stayed at in Dublin--are much harder to let go of. (I can sometimes work the OCD to advantage, however, if I can point out that the object is getting moldy or germy--then he wants nothing whatsoever to do with it.)

Sorry, I'm rambling--but I do sympathize and wish you luck with handling this!

Sympathy and a Suggestion

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

I am totally with you on that one. Both of my parents seem to have compulsive hoarding tendancies, which I am fighting mightily, particularly since I learned there was a term and a condition for it. Even now, I go to my parents house, as I did this Christmas, and see stacks of dust covered papers, free t-shirts acquired at industry conventions years ago countless knick-knacks, cardboard boxes piled in rooms nobody has seen the back of since I first left for college, and I wish there was some way I could help them.

On the other hand, I do feel that there is a need to balance out the emotional side of our lives and save our childhoods. I wish I could rescue my childhood--all my first attempts at writing--from the depths of my parent's clutter. Does Fiona have a scrapbook? Perhaps you could help her start one, or if she has one already, tell her that she can pick one shirt, and cut a 3 inch by 3 inch piece to scrapbook with a picture of her wearing that shirt. (Or something similar.) As long as she understands that she has to pick the shirt that means the most to her, and get rid of the rest, she may learn to be more discriminating about what she acquires and keeps.

I nearly always go by the cardinal rule: if you haven't used it in six months, or thought about it, maybe you should chuck it. I've gotten pretty good about throwing out or getting rid of the useless tchochkes that I've accumulated. (Church used to be particularly bad since all the teachers would hand out little knick knacks to remind us of this or that lesson. Imagine the guilt in throwing out a picture of Jesus. Or trying to get my very Mormon mother to get rid of the sixteen extra and very tattered copies of the Book of Mormon that she rescued from the church library.)

[aome.livejournal.com]

I like the salvage-for-patchwork idea. I also wondered if it would help to put a definite time limit on the item but not toss it this very moment: Now that she knows it's going away, give her a short period to 'say goodbye' - say, by the weekend. Friday night, the shirt goes out, no ifs, ands or buts, but if she wants to cling to it a few days more and say goodbye, maybe that would help?

[msisolak.livejournal.com]

There's also a wonderful book, Something From Nothing, that you should find and read together. It's written for younger children, (or maybe that's just me reading it every year to my kindergartners) but the illos alone are worth a look. Plus, I imagine you'll love the ending.

Still a covered button from the shirt fabric might be a simpler project than a quilt. Although a doll-sized quilt might be another way of handling the loss.

[jbru.livejournal.com]

I'm not completely sure how to do this, but one thing that might help Fiona and you is identifying what it is that she loves about the shirts and other clothes. If they inspire particular feelings or memories, it is those feelings and memories that are valuable, not, obviously, the stained and torn garments. Their are strategies for transferring the association of those feelings and memories from the garments with which they are obviously connected for Fiona now, to something that would be more desireable. Perhaps a more permanent keepsake or, ideally, something internal to Fiona herself. That way, whenever she wanted to remember those things or feel those feelings, she could call them up as she liked.

This is NLP, which some people have issues with as well so ignore if you don't think it will be valuable. If you do think it would be helpful, though, give a call to the house and talk to Ericka about it. She is quite adept at helping people play with their brains in this fashion and also knows the clutter thing first hand and so would be a sympathetic ear.

[pameladean]

Have you got any photographs of her wearing it? If it were me, that would be useful. The quilt idea is nice too.

I do want to tiresomely argue against the "if you haven't used it in x number of months, get rid of it." Using that yardstick has never caused me anything except regrets. I have things I wear every five years. I have books I read every ten. If I'd gone by that rule, I'd have been substantially unable to write my books. Just saying.

P.

Just thought of something!

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Eek!

You may be pursuing a counter-productive strategy. If Fiona learns that throwing things out means heartbreak and sorrow, she may learn exactly the opposite of what you want her to!

is there a way you can make going through the girls' clothes a game they can participate in? A competition to see who can have the most drawer/closet space?

[magentamn.livejournal.com]

What I do is have ONE box for the "I can't bear to throw this away" clothes. So, when I put something in, I almost always have to take something out. Usually something towards the bottom, that I haven't touched in several years.

Of course, most of the stuff in the box is a) way too small for me and b) still in wearable condition.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Some people in Japan recycle bits of used kimonos into book covers. I have one of those, and I treasure it.

That being said, I have to say that jbru's point crossed my mind as well. Is there any way you can give Fiona more control over these decisions? Like maybe saying, "[some number] of [certain articles of not-new clothing] must go; you pick which ones."

[laurel]

The quilt and scrapbook ideas sound good to me. A bit of work, but items she'd probably cherish for a long time.

I also had a hard time letting go of clothing, in particular, at that age (and older). A little time to say goodbye could help; I know that I've been most haunted by abrupt losses of clothing and the like.

It might also be worth taking time with her to note what it is she liked so much about the shirt (or whatever). Was it the fabric? color? cut? style? Or memories of places she went in it? All of the above? If she's fond of something physical about it (color, style, etc), you could make notes and then when you're next looking to get her a new shirt, y'all could try to find one that has some qualities in common with the old one. The sorts of notes I mention could be good to log in a scrapbook, with a picture and maybe a piece of the fabric.

Anyway. I sympathize. I cried over such stuff myself. I think some of the biggest fights I had with my Mom were over clothing. Usually when we differed in opinions over what I should wear, or on what to throw out.

[jbru.livejournal.com]

One of the things I think Peg's trying to accomplish is giving her girls an idea of which things to get rid of. So your and my idea of a fairly random selection of the items doesn't completely fit. Hmm.

Re: Just thought of something!

[laurel]

Letting her have some control over what to keep and what to discard could be useful.

If she's only allowed to have x number of shirts or x amount of space for clothes, she might come to realize that she doesn't want to keep an old wornout shirt if it's at the expense of clothes she actually can wear out.

My Mom did eventually let me keep a box of clothes I wanted to keep for sentimental reasons. Like Magenta noted below, that would also mean I had to make decisions because it was a finite space. Can't keep all the old clothes, must choose among them.

[jbru.livejournal.com]

Ericka keeps wanting me to let her make a quilt out of my old t-shirts. I don't get it. But, hey, reading back, Fiona just got a sewing machine for Christmas, so maybe that's the direction to pursue for her. Making something useful and loved out of loved things that aren't so useful anymore.

Re: Just thought of something!

[jbru.livejournal.com]

I like the "box of sentiment" option. As long as it was something like a plastic storage bin with a lid that closed securely. Cardboard would break down or be subject to damp and critters that would ruin the carefully selected memorabilia. Also, a platic bin would be less susceptible to being filled to bulging.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

I wish my mom had taught me that. I'm a horrible packrat, and so is she - and so was my grandmother. I'm trying to train myself to firmly throw things out, and it's hard. But space is of a premium, and it must be done.

[castiron.livejournal.com]

If it's only one or two items, and if they're grunged up to the point of being rags anyway, would converting them to dustrags be an option? Cut a big panel out of the shirt and have Fiona use it for dusting her room? (Or would this just mean that six months from now you'll have to deal with another hissy fit when you try to get rid of the trashy dustrag?)

Or would it be feasible to, say, bury it in the back yard with a little ceremony, instead of throwing it in the trash? (Okay, burial in Minnesota in winter isn't feasible, but the principle holds.)

I definitely agree that they have to learn how to get rid of stuff; from my experience, packratting causes a whole lot of stress in the long run, especially when you're trying to live with another person.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

But if it's OCD-type clinging to stuff, then it isn't a case of learning it's a case of brain chemistry.

As I understand it, people with this problem invest the thing with part of themselves, and getting rid of it is like getting rid of part of themselves -- so practical reasons don't help, because how would you like it if someone suggested sawing your arm off to make more room in the bed?

Learning to let go, to give away, to throw out, to keep without over-attaching... none of it's easy for any child.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is a lovely book, isn't it? We've taken it out of the libary several times.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Oh! Thank you for saying this. I'm much the same, and have only just learned to let go of things by being away from them for so long that they lose their value to me. But yes...I have things I only revisit on much longer cycles than the usual recommendation.

[ascian.livejournal.com]

I've always had a hard time with this. As a child I treated all objects like people. I couldn't throw away a piece of paper lest I hurt its feelings, or possibly take it away from the piece of paper next to it (with whom it had perhaps become friends or fallen in love). I kid you not in the slightest. In retrospect, I attribute this behaviour to Asperger's syndrome. To this day I have a hard time throwing things away. When something's damaged beyond use I have an easier time of it, but this breaks down with things like mirrors, which still reflect even in bitty pieces. This experience in mind, I can strongly identify with that pain that you're trying to spare your kids. Just be as gentle as you can, yeah? Good luck.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

I note that a lot of people have suggested the quilt/scrapbook option. My wife suggests something from her childhood: "Let Fiona have the scissors and decide what to do with the scraps, as poor pegkerr may not have the time for the making of quilts or such things." She says that when she was a chld, she took one of her favorite shirts, cut it up, and lined a jewelry box sort of thing with it. She still has it, too! (Though she says she won't show it to me, because then I'd know what her favorite shirt looked like. :) )

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

I agree entirely with your second paragraph. (I have no disagreement with the first!)

[vass]

I married a man who has obsessive-compulsive disorder, who gets physically ill at the idea of throwing things away. At the time I married him, I didn't know what immense stress that would cause our lives. And I am determined that the girls have to learn this: when something is ruined, you have to learn how to get rid of it.

Speaking as someone with obsessive-compulsive disorder: you are absolutely, totally right. It's a hard lesson, but not *nearly* as hard as the consequences of not learning it.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Is Fiona like this with everything--does she never want to get rid of anything? If so, IMHO learning is not the issue. There is something else going on.

If she is not like this about everything, then she already has learned how to get rid of things, and these particular things are just too difficult for her.

Or perhaps it's all a control issue (someone above referred to this). Kids control so little about their lives. Maybe it doesn't feel to her like her clothes are hers at all if someone else gets to decide to get rid of them.

Of all the ideas, I like laurel's best: You determine how many pieces of her clothing the family home has room for, and she determines what to keep. If it means she goes to school in the same two tops over and over because all the rest of the space is taken up by raggedy ones, so what?

[vass]

I've always had a hard time with this. As a child I treated all objects like people. I couldn't throw away a piece of paper lest I hurt its feelings, or possibly take it away from the piece of paper next to it (with whom it had perhaps become friends or fallen in love). I kid you not in the slightest.

Me too. To the extent of not shelving Britten next to Brahms on the bookshelf, because Britten didn't like Brahms. Which is less harmful than the piece of paper thing, which I do too. For me, identifying it as OCD behaviour helps a bit.

Stuff 'n... well, STUFF

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

I can understand the limited space business. How I ever got all my stuff in my old studio apartment is beyond me. On the other hand, not having enough room really help me cut down on the amount of crap I let myself drag home. (I once lived with someone who was an 'uber clutter fiend', and it was nearly impossible to walk a direct path anywhere! Also I did live with an artist who painted on HUGE canvases, usually about 7' by 6'. Cats loved it, though. Gave 'em LOTS of interesting perchs...

A different solution

[careswen.livejournal.com]

I always wanted to do the quilt thing that others suggested, but never found the time. So all the beloved items just sat in boxes for ages.

Finally, I gave up on the quilt idea, and did a photographic quilt: Took 9-12 items, folded them up neatly side-by-side in a square, and then took a photo. Then, the memories are preserved in a single picture, which takes up far less room than the clothes themselves, especially on my hard drive!

[ex-radparker580.livejournal.com]

So, were you actually looking for a couple dozen comments from people telling you how you should've handled it instead? Just curious.

I guess I'm one of the few who would've done exactly what you had done.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

*laughs* THANK you!

[red-queen.livejournal.com]

Being a responsible, loving mom is hard work. It means that sometimes you set rules or make decisions that elicit floods of tears from a much-loved sensitive child. And because you love her, and want her to grow up to be as whole and healthy as possible, you have to stick with it and listen to her cry sometimes. (I don't have kids, so this is obsevation-and-inference, not experience.) It takes guts.

I think you're absolutely doing the right stuff here -- you're giving Fiona some control about what gets kept and what gets tossed, but setting reasonable limits. And then you let your own anguish out in an appropriate way, without burdening Fiona with it. Hard work, all of it.

From what you've written about your girls, they're very sensitive, and stand a chance of inheriting predispositions to depression and OCD. Not that I have to tell you this, but your choices right now will help them manage their lives as adults. You're giving them a safe home with good structure, where they know they're loved. They won't necessarily figure this out until they hit their 20s or 30s (;-}), but I suspect it will dawn on them eventually. They'll be able to look back at familiar ways to cope, and maybe use them to put themselves back together.

When my life and clutter get out of control (ADD and depression, sigh), I do remember the way my mom ran the house, and it gives me some sense of what I can aim for. I have a lot of stuff standing between me and that, but that's a topic for my own journal, not yours!

[corinnethewise.livejournal.com]

::hugs:: That's probably a good idea. I had the worst time getting rid of things when I was younger (I still do, but now I put them in a box, they'll sit for a month or so, then I'll go through and get rid of the stuff that I really don't need). I cried over my mom throwing away the bathmat from our bathroom once.

[gamps-garret.livejournal.com]

Amen, Dorrie!

Peg -- I think you're doing a terrific job, and it's one that worked very well for my Mom over the years. My Dad is a horrible, horrible packrat who refuses to give or throw stuff away. As a preventative measure, Mom would go through our rooms with my sister and I twice a year (on Christmas vacation and during the week after school ended) and do just what you're doing; sort stuff to keep, stuff to hand down, and stuff to toss. It was hard every time, though knowing exactly what was expected every December and June did make it easier to anticipate the process from year to year.

Now, at 25, the only things I obsessively hold onto are greeting cards I receive through the year. And I follow Mom's old plan for my room: I go through the hatbox every January and wipe it clean -- saving no more than a dozen cards which will be scrapbooked as is, cutting up anything pretty to be used for gift tags, and tossing the rest.

Twenty years from now, your girls will thank you for teaching them the hard lessons when they were able to learn them.