Struggling to decide about church

[pegkerr]

My church is in trouble.

There has been some problems there for a long time that I have not completely understood. A woman that the girls were very close to, whom they had adopted as sort of a honorary grandma, the parish nurse, got into some sort of power struggle with the pastor and quit the church. We have had a turnover of the entire church staff in the past year: youth director, worship director, education director, church secretary. Membership has been dropping and so the budget was cut, including the pastor's salary by 40%, and the pastor announced his resignation two weeks later. I talked with him and with some other people, and learned that there had been (among other things) a power struggle between our long term worship director (who had been at the church for 37 years) and the pastor, because the worship director didn't want change. After he retired, he still kept interfering with what was going on, through people who were still loyal to him. The girls don't like the education/youth director. She's a kindergarten teacher with an extremely syrupy personality--think of Dolores Umbridge, without the malevolence--and she treats children as if they are much younger than they are ("I don't need to be gluing cotton balls on lambs" as Delia puts it). The position of council president, vice president and secretary are vacant.

Now, in another blow, I have just learned that the man who ran the Forum, which is the adult education I really liked, is leaving the church.

So what do I do? We have a new interim pastor starting soon, and we'll be searching for a new one. The new choir director is good, and the new organist is absolutely terrific. I've heard speculations that the education/youth director may not stay, because her internship was somehow tied to the identity of the pastor, the one who has left.

I want the girls to be in a strong church by the time they are ready for confirmation. This one is more conservative than I like, and I'm not sure it is going to survive. But it is our church. The girls were baptized here, and there are people here I still love to see. Isn't it part of our responsibility as members to help turn things around? Shouldn't we be acting as members of the body of Christ, trying to heal the body, rather than consumer/shoppers who reason, "This isn't meeting my needs, so I'm outta here"? What is my responsibility? What should I do?

Comments

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

What are your options?

K.

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

Well, to leave and try to find another church, or stay for awhile and see how the transition goes, and try to help the church turn things around, so it'll be revitalized by the time the girls enter the confirmation/high school youth program.

The problem is, I don't have much time to volunteer for leadership positions, myself. I've been trying to pare down my commitments so that I can get back to writing, so I don't want to take any of the vacant council positions.

[aome.livejournal.com]

Would there be a way to call a meeting of parishoners (without including the staff)? Just to see what others have to say? Or, at the very least, in socializing with others before/after service, sort of feel things out in how others might be perceiving things? Because if there's going to be some turnaround, you will need a majority support of others, and their ideas. So, casually scoping things out over the next few weeks might give you some answers.

On the other hand, if it turns out that you are in the minority, then I don't see a problem with finding a place that *does* suit you. To me, the whole idea of choosing a church and denomination is based on finding a place where God speaks to you, and where you feel supported in that pursuit, and if you cannot find it in one place, I don't see why it's wrong to find a place that *does* suit you.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

No one can tell you what you should do. I offer just a couple of thoughts.

The members of a particular church may be members of the larger body of Christ, but they are also members of a human community, subject to all the problems of any human community. When people actually hurt each other, that may call for healing the body, but when they engage in power struggles or can't agree, that has to do with human community.

Churches today do have businesslike aspects. There's no way around it. If a church can't take in enough money to keep up the physical plant, to pay the employees, to run the programs, the church closes. And a large part of bringing in that money is pleasing the members.

Churches have always had personal conflicts and power struggles. These were kept to a minimum in the Roman Catholic churches I grew up in, because there was an unchallengeable hieracrchy: the pastor was the ultimate authority, the other priests were next, then the mother superior of the school, then the other sisters, then the lay teachers, then the adults of the parish, then the kids. But from my friends who grew up in Protestant churches I know that power struggles were not uncommon there. Wherever there are people who have power and people who don't, there will be some kind of power struggle. (Yes, even in the Catholic churches of my childhood, though it was usually subtle.)

been there

[rvrjoe775.livejournal.com]

Church politics are worse than fan politics. If they are already so invasive that a former worship director can continue a power struggle through other members, healing the body may require amputation. There are a couple churches in Michigan I wouldn't consider visiting much less joining again, because the same power-hungry people are still in charge. In my opinion, your responsibility to your children outweighs responsibility to your children -- if crime in your neighborhood went skyrocketing, how long would you stay?

Re: been there

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

The people I've been talking to the past few weeks hope that now that the pastor has left, with whom the former worship director was struggling so much, perhaps the former worship director will finally let go and let the church move on from his legacy.

I dunno. I didn't see the conflict much first hand--just the awful result.

[sleigh.livejournal.com]

My curmedgeonly thoughts, FWIW --

Forget it's a church. The way people should be acting has no bearing; people in a group engage in internal politics and power games, no matter what the organization might be. You have three basic options, as I see it:

1) you can become involved in the politics yourself and align yourself with those who want to move in a similar direction as yourself. Be aware that this will cause you to become actively 'against'' those who want to go any other way, and that may/will affect friendships and other relationships. You can push your own agenda and try to make the organization look and act the way you want it to.

2) Don't take sides and stay out of the fray. You can be passive and watch the politics play out. Eventually one faction or the other will become influential enough that it will move the group in the direction it wants to go. Maybe the New Order will be just fine for you. Then again, maybe it won't.

3) You can leave and find a place that feels better suited for you. Just be aware that it too will have internal politics and conflicts that may not be visible to you until you're inside the organization.

I know that sounds cynical, but in every group of more than a half dozen people of which I've been part or which I've seen close enough to know, assembled for any purpose at all, there have been politics involved. The three basic options above seem to be the only alternatives to me. This includes churches, dojos, academia, corporations, small business, RPG groups, fandom, writer organization, bands, and just plain old everyday social circles.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

The way people should be acting has no bearing;

I second that. I think there's a danger here of thinking that one of your alternatives is that people will suddenly realize they're all part of the body of Christ and start acting in accord with that realization.

Ain't gonna happen. Trust me. Your real alternatives are the ones sleigh outlines; there may be others, but I can't think of any.

[vass]

I think there's a danger here of thinking that one of your alternatives is that people will suddenly realize they're all part of the body of Christ and start acting in accord with that realization.

That bit deserved to be in bold, because yes, darnit.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

One of the things I have found useful in our church search is remembering that they're all the body of Christ, just not all the body of Christ where we feel fed. Contributing time and talents and energy to heal a church is a positive thing, but so is contributing time and talents and energy to work with a functional church on something else, like a coat drive for needy people with winter coming on or a Vacation Bible School program that doesn't make bright little girls glue cotton balls. If I find that a church enhances my ability to help "feed [His] flock," whether within or outside its walls, it's probably a better church for me and a better way for the body of Christ to use my time and talents than if I'm spending all of my time fighting instead of feeding.

I know what you mean about it being your church, though. It's a home. I lost one of my church homes in July to a hateful shift in ideology, and I'm still mourning for it.

[laurel]

That's tough.

I do recommend that if you consider changing churches, you involve the girls in the process or at least keep them updated on what's going on.

When I was a kid, my parents changed churches (from an LCA church-- now ELCA to a Missouri Synod one). It was because they were having my brother and I switch from public school to a Lutheran grade school and the school was affiliated with this new church and it made since 'cuz we'd be getting confirmation class at the grade school. Plus, as I understand it, my parents didn't like the politics at the old church. And they thought the synod was getting away from fundamentals, etc. In other words: they had their reasons (some of 'em darn good ones).

But while I know my brother and I knew a bit of this at the time, I also know that the actual switch seemed a shock anyway. One week we were at one church, the next at a new one. I didn't feel like I got to properly say goodbye to the old (and the people at it, even though I wasn't really close to anyone by the time we left).

It was especially rough on me 'cuz we went from a church where I had just started taking communion to a church where I wasn't allowed to take communion 'til I was confirmed. Confused me. I should've talked to my parents about it, I don't think they knew how much that bugged me (or how much the seemingly sudden switch did). But I was quiet and shy and not one to speak up and pretty good at hiding how I felt.

I'm rambling. Anyway. You probably know this, but I'd recommend you be sure to keep the girls in the loop. And maybe even if you think you are, you might want to doublecheck somehow.

I ended up resenting all things church for a long time (until my time at the area Lutheran High School, when I took an independent study cource on C.S. Lewis . . . ).

Which reminds me, I need to go shopping for a church in Minneapolis. Probably a Lutheran one, though I'm open to other possibilities (and I know Kevin would be more comfortable probably at a unitarian church). I'll let you know if I run across any that strike me as particularly cool! (But it's so hard to tell from just a visit, y'know?)

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

In what part of the Cities are you looking?

[pegkerr.livejournal.com]

I've talked with the girls about what we should do. They're just as torn as I am. We may go to check out a few others. *Sigh* Change is hard.

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

I think that churches are fallible, even if you believe God isn't.

My perspective of this situation is vastly different from yours--I grew up Mormon, and they are a very hierarchally oriented church, nearly corporate in their structure. Your ward leadership changes every few years, and there is constant change in who the humans running the programs are, but very little change in the program. (I was shocked and amazed the first time I realised many other churches reviewed their pastors and/or paid them a salary. Shocked and amazed, I tell you.) It's a church that was once less conservative than it is now, but the rulings all come from the top down, so there was little way to change the environment to make it more "spiritually conducive".

I like your attitude about staying to enact changes. I think it's a good one--one that most churches should be about. But I also think that the church as a whole should have the same attitude: Trying to heal the body and mind of individuals instead of bean-counting members as just another statistic for the glory of God. It should work as a symbiotic relationship, I think.

From a strictly anthropological perspective, I think that most religions and dogmas start off as a nifty idea, a great experiment, and for as long as they retain that openess to change, they can do a great deal of good as they flexibly approach each members needs. But eventually the group becomes codified, inertia sets in, and conservative tactics rule: The letter of the law prevails, rather than the spirit.

What are your goals for worship? Do you feel that the church you are at serves those needs? If it doesn't, do you feel that the atmosphere is one where you can discuss your beliefs openly? That you can help make changes? Help make other people stronger? Most importantly, how is this environment going to help your children? (Example: Even if I thought I could make a change in the Mormon church--from the inside, rather than my current status as outsider--I wouldn't want to raise my children with the ideas they could get exposed to every Sunday--particularly given the way women are marginalised subtly in Mormon doctrine.)

Are the doctrine and worship tied to the people or the building or the community or any of the above? Is there another place you can find that has the same attitude you desire? (While I understand the joy of continuity and wishing that your daughters could be confirmed in the same environment in which they were baptised, I also think it is rare for any one community or group to remain as they were when your memories of them are best and brightest.)

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

It pays to pick your battles. Do you believe that you can single-handed restore an organization that is in the habit of destructive internal bickering? Look at the track record. Do you genuinely believe that you can heal these wounds?

I was in a similarly bickering church. The bishop eventually stepped in and closed it down. I thought it was the right thing to do.

[malkingrey.livejournal.com]

My two cents: One particular church, or one particular congregation, isn't the entirety of the Body of Christ, any more than, say, the Worldcon Committee is the entirety of fandom. And not everybody has the gift of working through and with church politics without getting chewed up in the process -- there's enough necessary work to do in the world that (barring truly extraordinary circumstances) I don't think we're required to spend ourselves on things we're no good at and can't endure.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

My sympathies. Our regular church was gutted when highway construction cleared out many neighbors, some fifteen years ago. From then it was a slow slide down till it closed while I was in college. Several unfortunate deaths of pastors and just low attendance. Thankfully the building is now used as a Korean church, but now the old parishoners are scattered over several parishes.

[copperwise.livejournal.com]

When I was a teenager and young adult, I was a practicing Catholic. Our parish Youth Program was one of the strongest, most creative, most well-organized programs in the state. We were active, we were all involved in dozens of retreats, outreach programs, etc. We were constantly being invited to come and do retreats and events in other cities and even states, to help them build their programs.

Our priest, the one who was devoted entirely to the youth program, was a legend.

It was a beautiful time in my life.

Fr. F was transferred. At the same time Fr. K, the head pastor, retired, replaced by Fr. D. D's first act was to confiscate the entire Youth Program bank account, all money we had earned through fundraisers, and give it to another program. Within a year, the Youth Program was gutted. Other strong communities within the parish were destroyed in order to concentrate on what Fr. D felt was important. The man came in and nearly singlehandedly trashed an entire parish -- the only church in that particular town, with the nearest being 20 miles away. Nobody knew how to handle it, or was willing to buck the system, and so a huge chunk of something lovely was completely destroyed.

A lot of people lost faith. I know it contributed heavily to my leaving the Church (I would have eventually anyway, but it surely sped me on my way).

My point, and I do have one, is that humans are fallible, with their own motivations. Everyone here has given good advice. I guess my story is just an illustration of what can happen when people don't step up and take on the problems.

You may not be able to fix this. You may have to leave. But don't go quietly. Don't just sit back and let things go to pieces without at least trying.

[kayre]

My take on this may be slightly different than the others above. I understand the dilemma, but to me the single most important point is that this church isn't serving your children, and apparently the education director is the one staff member who hasn't left and isn't leaving. If it were just you personally, I might urge you to stay and be a voice for change-- but I think the needs of your girls outweigh that.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

[whapnoggin.livejournal.com]

I would suggest that you take a close look at the youth programs, both as they are and as they are likely to be. Will the girls feel comfortable there? Will the youth leaders maintain a healthy and interesting environment? Youth programs, if run badly, can be even more clique-ridden and distancing than the schools. You don't want your girls to get through confirmation and then drop out because they don't feel involved or welcome. Remember that the politics of the church at large are likely to filter down into the youth programs and the way they are run. You say that the girls already don't like the youth director; if she is replaced soon, you may have a chance to reevaluate, but if not...you're stuck. Are there others involved with the youth program who can make up for the failings of the director? Or does the director control everything? Think hard about who will be in charge of most of the youth activities for the next several years in making a decision.

I do speak very much from experience.

[timprov.livejournal.com]

You've talked a lot about what the pastors and various directors are doing, but not about the council, which seems an important part here, since they're presumably the ones actually in charge.

I would say you have two decent options:

You can be patient, wait to find out how things turn out with the interim and the new pastor before making your decision. (You can do this and look at some other churches at the same time, as well.) Typically this would be my advice, but for that 40% pay cut.

What we've found is that churches who look to save money when they're looking for a new pastor tend to get themselves in deep trouble. If it were me, I think the answer is to get out of there and get working on finding somewhere new quickly, unless there are a few really outstanding people on the council.

I do know a more-liberal church with a bunch of smart kids and a minimum of nasty politics, but it's in Plymouth, which would be a bit of a trek for you.

[tiellan.livejournal.com]

I think your responsibility is to your children first. You could argue that by staying with this church, you'd be setting an example for your children. But I guess what you need to decide is what would be worse for them: staying with this church through the power struggles or going to a new church. I can imagine pros and cons to both.

From my own experience growing up in a military family, I'd been to at least four or five different churches before I was confirmed. The church I'd been to the longest (up to about age 8) was on a military base and the pastors changed frequently. Even though we'd been to a few different churches, there was still constancy: (1) It was always a church of the same denomination. (2) I was always involved in the CCD program. (3) My parents always took an active interest in my involvement with the church (i.e., CCD wasn't just a place they dumped me off to get rid of me for an hour on Sunday). I did eventually leave the church I was baptised in, but I'm still thankful for the strong foundation I had in that church. The only thing that I wish had been different was that I wish both my parents had prayed with me, and I wish they never stopped (my dad prayed with me until I was about 8 or 10 years old, then it stopped).

So personally, I don't think that the building you go to worship in is as significant as the family environment you're raised in. I do think it's important to support your church, but if the power struggle could weaken the foundation for your girls, I would "shop around" for another church. My parents even did that with me -- we went to a church that was outside of our parish lines because they didn't like the one we were supposed to go to, but it was the same denomination.

Whatever you decide, you don't have to decide today, so pray on it until you come to a decision that you're comfrotable with spiritually and as a parent.

[kijjohnson.livejournal.com]

The church will survive. That's what intervention/interim ministers are for: they're trained to handle situations like this. My dad's been through two of them in the past four years. But it's not going to be stable for at least another year. i would be tempted to stay through the next year and see where they're at by next summer's end. ELCA confirms late now, as I recall.

[vass]

Shouldn't we be acting as members of the body of Christ, trying to heal the body, rather than consumer/shoppers who reason, "This isn't meeting my needs, so I'm outta here"? What is my responsibility? What should I do?

I'm not a Christian, but I'm going to have a guess at this anyway. The church I sing at had its gospel reading yesterday on the missing coin. It seems to me that the woman searching for the coin - she was searching for the *coin*, not a particular wallet she wanted to keep it in. And it didn't say anywhere that she had to keep all her coins in one place, just that she didn't want to lose it somewhere irretrievable. Same with the sheep - it doesn't say if he corralled them all together, just that he wanted them all to be safe. And the parable doesn't show the shepherd being greatly concerned about pasture his sheep are grazing on, just the sheep. If he had ninety-nine safe and one missing, he'd search high and low until he found that hundredth sheep, and then he'd rejoice.

I mean, I might be wrong, but it seems to me that Christ must love every single person in your church very much, and want you to love each of them as you love yourself, but that's not the same thing as insisting they stay in the same group.

Or I might be out of my depth. Is there an uninvolved priest you could ask?

[aeditimi.livejournal.com]

As a new pastor, I am quite biased, but I can say that if it weren't for a couple of familes who are tirelessly committed to my church despite all its faults and who are willing to work with me to make it be the church they want it to be, I have no idea what I would do.

Power struggles are an unfortunate reality in churches, I'm learning, although in my church they don't involve me--yet anyway. But struggles between families, old rivals, etc. are so infuriating the make me ill. I always want to shake people and scream at them that there are a million things a church could be doing to combat hunger or classism or systemic oppression--true evil-- and instead we're arguing over who gets to pick what hymns. But in the long run, I hope my church is a team, a family, and not consumers. I hope the members are engaged in turning things around. Not all of them are, but the ones who are make all the difference.

Not that I have any right to talk, since the entire reason that I am United Methodist is because I couldn't change the Catholic Church into what I wanted it to be. Come to think of it, one of the reasons I am a pastor is because I have more opportunities to turn things around. So I'm just babbling. I understand the need for a church that is healthy, fulfilling, good for one's family. But from the pastor's perspective, if everyone leaves in search of that church, I'm left with one big dysfunctional mess on my hands!

Church Woes

[huladavid.livejournal.com]

Judie Clicain just went through a bad patch with her church. Would you like me to mention this to her? Maybe it might help to talk to her.

Best wishes.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I've been at our church for twenty years now (half my life!) but my husband grew up there and my mother-in-law has been a member for 44 years, so I'm somewhat privy to some info about church history. Back in the seventies the church went through a period when the congregation was split concerning the merits of the pastor and a large contingent were basically trying to get him to leave. He did end up leaving but rather than just allowing the congregation to hire an interim and put together a PNC (pastoral nominating committee) to look for a new person the Presbytery assigned as interim a young man whose specialty was helping heal rifts in congregations that had been undergoing upheaval. His presence was very helpful and led to the congregation being able to come together as a cohesive whole to search for a new pastor, the man who, with his wife, co-officiated at our wedding.

I don't know whether the ELCA has folks who come into troubled congregations to help with this sort of situation, but it couldn't hurt to look into it. Your local bishop may not even be aware that there has been a problem in your church. If there is such a person who can act as a mediator or someone who can spearhead a self-study of the congregation you wouldn't even have to take on that work yourself, although you would of course participate as a member in trying to work toward a happier and more fulfilling house of worship.

As for leaving the congregation--although that can be very hard, in the long run I think that whether you are with others you consider to be kindred spirits can play a huge role in whether you feel comfortable in your house of worship, and if all of the people who made you feel that way have left, you may start to feel like going to church is just another chore and an obligation, rather than a place that helps you to recharge emotionally and spiritually. In the long run you need to weight the reasons why you go to church in general (ideal reasons) with the reasons why you go to THAT church specifically. If it is not meeting your spiritual needs and causing you more emotional trouble than it's healing in you, I think the choice is clear.